P2 glitch similar to 'tape hits'

I'd rather give up cinematography for life than use a PC - and I'm serious about that.
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Sorry buddy but if you're actually willing to give up a career and passion just so you don't have to use a PC, then you probably shouldn't be in the business in the first place.
 
Richard Sutcliffe said:
Replied :beer:
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Glad we sorted it out and can see each others' perspectives on what it means to be "helpful." :)

All you Apple guys keep banging the drum for a solution because you deserve one. Strength in numbers!
 
I am format agnostic, both systems do different things better. Dont think of it as a PC, think of it as a P2 dump station. You can pick one up CHEAP (I am selling my 700m for under $900) that has tons of HDD space, can view clips on the fly, etc. etc.

I use a PC (or Mac with bootcamp) to dump my P2 cards to Fat32 drives so that I can edit them on my mac. This is the compromise for low cost HD at the moment. I odnt care what some people say, the Mac is just not as solid for backing up P2. HOWEVER, it is probably the best for editing if you have FCP 5.1.2


Dont want a PC? Fine then buy a P2 dump machine that just happens to be running XP...




ash =o)
 
Well since the actual chances of me being forced to use a PC to be a cinematographer are non-existent, what I said should be taken more as an insult to Microsoft rather than a willingness to abandon Cinematography. See - I created a ridiculous set of circumstances to make a point. Sometimes when I say stuff like that I forget that some people are dense and take things too literally.
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Yeah. It's so crazy for people to take you seriously when you say, "and I'm serious about that!" You must school the rest of us in the arts of communication and self expression.

However, if it were the case that PC's were the only route, I would probably find a way to circumnavigate Bill Gates' crippling p-OS and carry on. If I couldn't create my own alternative to Windows I'd probably get an abacus and some papaya and go back to the old way of doing things.
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Hmm...how enlightening. I have a feeling that if you ever told someone you're working for, "I'd rather give up cinematography for life than use a PC - and I'm serious about that," then they'd give you a pat on the back and say, "Ok. You're fired."

I appreciate you taking time out of your busy schedual to chime in. You can go back to sipping your latte at your Starbucks outpost whilst discussing 'cinema' and calling yourself an 'auteur' loudly enough for those around you to think you're cool.
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I resent that. I drink Java Chip Frappuccinos at Starbucks and haven't had one in weeks.
 
For the life of me I don't understand this approach of "your either with us or against us" when it comes to Mac people. Why would anyone place that much importance on a tool, unless of course they too were a tool.

Barry and others here are trying to help and some just won't accept any amount of reason from someone "in the other camp".

Jumping to the conclusion that just because someone doesn't use a Mac that they are automatically a PC user fails to realize that there are other choices too. In my office we no longer use Macs but not all of our computers are PCs, we have SGI and Sun Microsystems hardware too.

Placing an unrealistic importance on the tool one uses for a task misses the bigger issue:

What should really matter is the work that you generate with whatever tools you choose to use.
 
Somehow this thread has veered off the road and landed in a muddy ditch somewhere.

Let's stop calling each other names and get back to the business at hand...
 
khmuse said:
I don't understand this approach of "your either with us or against us" when it comes to Mac people.
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Hey, not all Mac people.


Anyway, what I'm really interested in is what your're using Sun and SGI for these days. I used to use SGI and Sun machines frequently (back in the robotics research days), but they were all eventually replaced by Linux, Macs, or PCs for everything except server tasks. Back in the early days of OpenGL, especially, SGI was hot... but what're they strong for now?
 
Lets not forget that some of have invested heavily in the Mac platform, thousands of dollars worth of investment, we've been told it works and it doesn't. We have a right to expect a solid workflow. What we are looking for is a solution to a known problem and not blase comments about dumping our investments, taking apart our studios and re-building them around PC's. That sounds so very simple when you don't have to actually do it.

This is a much bigger issue than what is better and important to a number of businesses, mine, apples and panasonics to name just three.
 
But nobody ever said to do that. I said "edit on the Mac all you want, but if you want reliable rock-solid card transfers, the PC is the better choice for that." So buy a cheapo $299 PC laptop at Best Buy or Circuit City and use that to transfer the cards with.

Nobody said anything about getting rid of anything, of dumping any investment, of rebuilding anything.

I'm saying that the PC transfers cards flawlessly. Macs have issues. So don't use that Mac to do that job.

Regarding the Mac, it's incumbent on all users, all who have been inconvenienced by this, and all who may someday be inconvenienced by it, to fill out the FCP feedback form and demand that Apple FIX IT.
 
Barry_Green said:
But nobody ever said to do that. I said "edit on the Mac all you want, but if you want reliable rock-solid card transfers, the PC is the better choice for that." So buy a cheapo $299 PC laptop at Best Buy or Circuit City and use that to transfer the cards with.
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But that would dirty the hands of a Mac purist! Seems like such a simple, reliable and inexpensive solution.

I have to inter-operate with Macs and other machines all the time. I don't protest, I do what is needed to get the job done.

Its the job and not the tool that should matter.
 
Richard Sutcliffe said:
Lets not forget that some of have invested heavily in the Mac platform, thousands of dollars worth of investment, we've been told it works and it doesn't. We have a right to expect a solid workflow. What we are looking for is a solution to a known problem and not blase comments about dumping our investments, taking apart our studios and re-building them around PC's. That sounds so very simple when you don't have to actually do it.

This is a much bigger issue than what is better and important to a number of businesses, mine, apples and panasonics to name just three.
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Most of the commentary here suggesting switching toi PCs has not been blase. It has been serious and useful. As have many comments on attitude! Some people are having persitent problems with Macs and P2 that there is no current easy solution for. People have given you advice not to dump the entire Mac editing setup, but to use a cheapo PC laptop as a P2 transfer device.

When you say things like "we've been told it works and it doesn't. We have a right to expect a solid workflow" you are dealing with some non-existant world where justice prevails and all claims are true. Further, you are making (to some extent) a claim that Apple has failed you (you were told it works by who? Who do you expect a solid-working FCP system from?), then rejecting any advice that says "maybe Apple is the problem".

Look, we know you've invested. But Have you heard of "sunk costs"? Complaining here, while claiming "Macs should work, cause I paid a lot" does not get you closer to a solution. Complaining about good advice given to you, just because it doesn't fit your world view, will not get you closer to a solution. Get another Mac if you want. Most of them seem to work fine. Don't upgrade to FCP 5.1.2. But don't sit there with your hands over your ears and demand a solution that doesn't put blame on the Mac. In this case, the issues clearly seem to be Mac-specific.

This is not a case where noone is telling you how to fix it, so they can tell you "just get a PC". This ius a case where there is no known solution, except "get a PC".
 
ullanta said:
Hey, not all Mac people.


Anyway, what I'm really interested in is what your're using Sun and SGI for these days. I used to use SGI and Sun machines frequently (back in the robotics research days), but they were all eventually replaced by Linux, Macs, or PCs for everything except server tasks. Back in the early days of OpenGL, especially, SGI was hot... but what're they strong for now?
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I agree, there are many rational and level headed Mac users out there. Unfortunately, not all of them have as enlightened view of the world as you do.

I use an SGI for high end MPEG encoding and DVD authoring running under IRIX. For the engineering side we use Sun workstations for circuit simulation and analysis. I use a PC for office and desktop publishing tasks, machine code writing and for PCB layout. All these machines happily co-exist and though we got rid of all the Macs we still have some clients that use them and we will happily work with them too.
 
ullanta said:
Most of the commentary here suggesting switching toi PCs has not been blase. It has been serious and useful. As have many comments on attitude! Some people are having persitent problems with Macs and P2 that there is no current easy solution for. People have given you advice not to dump the entire Mac editing setup, but to use a cheapo PC laptop as a P2 transfer device.

When you say things like "we've been told it works and it doesn't. We have a right to expect a solid workflow" you are dealing with some non-existant world where justice prevails and all claims are true. Further, you are making (to some extent) a claim that Apple has failed you (you were told it works by who? Who do you expect a solid-working FCP system from?), then rejecting any advice that says "maybe Apple is the problem".

Look, we know you've invested. But Have you heard of "sunk costs"? Complaining here, while claiming "Macs should work, cause I paid a lot" does not get you closer to a solution. Complaining about good advice given to you, just because it doesn't fit your world view, will not get you closer to a solution. Get another Mac if you want. Most of them seem to work fine. Don't upgrade to FCP 5.1.2. But don't sit there with your hands over your ears and demand a solution that doesn't put blame on the Mac. In this case, the issues clearly seem to be Mac-specific.

This is not a case where noone is telling you how to fix it, so they can tell you "just get a PC". This ius a case where there is no known solution, except "get a PC".
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I agree very much with ullanta, khmuse, Barry and others taking this approach. Use whatever you have to in order to get the job done. The ultimate goal is to produce that film/video, right? Don't lose sight of the big picture. Use what works now. In the meantime, keep hounding Apple to fix their bugs.

khmuse said:
But that would dirty the hands of a Mac purist! Seems like such a simple, reliable and inexpensive solution.

I have to inter-operate with Macs and other machines all the time. I don't protest, I do what is needed to get the job done.

Its the job and not the tool that should matter.
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Hey, I was/am an Amiga computer fan. Mac zealots ain't got nothing on us! :2vrolijk_08:

But seriously . . . nobody hated Micro$oft Windoze more than me! One day I got to the point where I saw big improvements in the Windows OS and actually found useful things to do with a PC. Nowadays, I use a PC regularly for work and play because it serves my purposes. And I still tinker and have fun with Amigas. It's all good.
 
Personally, it seems like the smartest thing is to have both systems availible if you really wanna be able to handle any situation. I'm a hardcore PC guy and always have been but I considered getting a MAC as my offload laptop since I'm really unhappy with some of the PC compressors and applications at the moment. I was this close but then decided against it because of the offload issue (and because they're starting to phase out the PCIMIA slot). That said, it's clear that, if my business grows enough, I'm going to have to probably invest in a MAC at some point. I'll probably feel dirty afterwards but I'd rather feel dirty (and endure my girlfriend's angry stares) then lose out on business.
 
Lets hope the Mac offload problem is specific to the G4 powerbooks, and that MacBook Pros with Duel Systems upcoming expresscard to P2 adapter will not suffer from it
 
This bug looks to intermittent to be Apple's fault. Could it have something to do with the invisible .DSTORE file written to FAT32 disks? If that is the case the P2 disks should be write protected (which they should be anytime you use them on any computer).
 
Roland Emmerich, Director of Independence Day once said: "It's not the tools, it's the craft!"

Whatever workflow works for you, go for it. On which platform do you work on? Who cares.

What camera was Steven Spielberg using on 'Raiders of the lost ark'? Does it matter?
I've seen Feature Films been edited on a Laptop with AVID Free DV! It worked well as an EDL for a bigger AVID-System for Mastering. It can be done if you have to.
D.Eric Franks on Digital Juice Television keeps repeating: "Don't let technology in the way of your creativity, there is no technical solution to artistic problems"

Do what you have to using the tools that you have.

Stop this Mac-PC thing. It's boring. Shoot, edit, project. Show your work. Not your Willy!


Peter
 
A very simple test would be to look at the date/time stamp to see if any file has been touched.

A bit of simple testing would be all that would be required to establish the likely source of the problem. Has it not been reported that a corrupted read of a P2 card in a Mac would still read fine if reinstalled back into the HVX? If that were the case, then a further test would be to take the same P2 card that is exhibiting a read fault on the Mac and insert it into a PC (I know that some will object to even having a PC anywhere within shouting distance of their Mac, but thats another issue) and test the contents.

Given the right resources, this shouldn't be too difficult to establish what is happening. The unfortunate fact seems to be that the individual with the greatest possibility of finding a solution (and apparently needing one as well) seems more concerned with making this into I hate all things Bill Gates has ever touched than working with others to solve the problem.
 
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