Is the HVX200 Right for Us? (and if so, what else do we need?)

[enehta]

Greetings!

I'm a research assistant in a lab, and we're trying to figure out which camera would be right for what we need to do. We're strongly drawn to the HVX200 (primarily because of its 60fps capability), but I've recently read a few things which have raised some red flags as to whether this is the right camera.

Our primary use for the camera will be to film people talking, indoors, in a controlled setting. Ideally, we'd like to be able to get an hour or so of footage per sitting, which sounds like I'll be getting very very good at hotswapping... We're interested in small facial movements, which is why 60fps sounds nice. However, we're also interested in being able to pull out single frames from the footage, and I can't figure out whether it's possible to get the 60fps in progressive (non-interlaced) mode. Is it?


Other things I can't figure out (despite lots of web searching, manual reading, and talking to a Panasonic rep etc.):

- Is it still 1 min/GB on the P2 card even at 60fps?

- I've seen conflicting statements on whether you can directly save the footage to a hard drive (via Firewire connection) while filming when doing 60fps (or, for that matter, several of the other modes). When can you directly save either to harddrive or at the least import into your editing program DURING FILMING?

- Is Final Cut Pro still the only major program which can edit the HD footage? And either way, are there any recommendations for computer features above and beyond the basic system requirements?

- How easy is it to switch between 60fps and 30fps while filming? Between P2 and Mini-DV? Between P2 and downloading via Firewire?

- Do we really want HD? (I'd thought we did, but then I was looking into it further, and it seems like the HD compression REQUIRES interlacing - which would be a problem for us to grab single frames. Is this so? And can anyone direct me to a clear explanation of why HD is better than other modes, so I can explain it to the powers-that-be?

- What accessories do we need? (I don't trust salespeople to be non-biased on that one... do we really need the $500 tripod for indoor filming where the camera's not going anywhere?)

- How fast is it to get the data off of the AJ-PCS060 Store (or whichever is the currently available version)? I ask, because the estimate I've gotten shows the Store as cheaper than the Drive, which is appealing, but we'll probably want to accumulate more than 60GB of data - so can we actively dump from it fast enough while we're also hotswapping P2 cards and other such fun things? What about the Drive? Can data be taken off of the P2 card fast enough to be able to hotswap it back in? (we'll probably be going with the 8GB P2 cards)

- How absurd does the whole hotswapping procedure look? Can it be done relatively subtly, or is it likely to distract our subjects? (hence my questions about directly downloading - ideally, we don't want to have an extra person in the room to operate the camera...)

Thank you so much in advance, any help you can provide is greatly appreciated.

:dankk2:

 

[Barry_Green]

However, we're also interested in being able to pull out single frames from the footage, and I can't figure out whether it's possible to get the 60fps in progressive (non-interlaced) mode. Is it?

Yes, 720/60p is all-progressive.

- Is it still 1 min/GB on the P2 card even at 60fps?

Yes.

- I've seen conflicting statements on whether you can directly save the footage to a hard drive (via Firewire connection) while filming when doing 60fps (or, for that matter, several of the other modes). When can you directly save either to harddrive or at the least import into your editing program DURING FILMING?

Only if you're recording to a FireStore, or through a computer. DV Rack 2.0 HD is an excellent capture utility and will easily handle 720/60p live.

- Is Final Cut Pro still the only major program which can edit the HD footage?

Not at all, Avid supports it, as does EDIUS Broadcast, and you can use Raylight or CineForm or Serious Magic's programs to get compatibility with Vegas or Premiere Pro.

- How easy is it to switch between 60fps and 30fps while filming?

You cannot change the frame rate during a shot. You can instantly change between shots though; stop recording and turn the scene file dial and start recording again etc.

Between P2 and Mini-DV?

Camera has to be turned off and then back on to do that swap.

Between P2 and downloading via Firewire?

Must be turned off and back on. But you can record to P2 and also stream live through firewire to your computer or FireStore simultaneously.

- Do we really want HD? (I'd thought we did, but then I was looking into it further, and it seems like the HD compression REQUIRES interlacing - which would be a problem for us to grab single frames. Is this so?

No, not so -- 720p HD is 60 fps and no interlacing.

And can anyone direct me to a clear explanation of why HD is better than other modes, so I can explain it to the powers-that-be?

More resolution, sharper pictures, easier to discern details.

- How absurd does the whole hotswapping procedure look? Can it be done relatively subtly, or is it likely to distract our subjects?

It's not "absurd", but it's not preferable either. I've done it, and I'd rather just record straight to DV Rack or a FireStore if recording long-form like that. But it can be done.

 

[enehta]

Outstanding!

You've just made my day, on several levels. (yay not having to hide behind a piece of cardboard so the subject can't see me frantically hotswap chips...)

Thanks!

 

[enehta]

I just talked with the sales rep we've been getting estimates from, and according to him, you cannot send the 60fps to either the Firestore or DV Rack... This is directly from his e-mail (underlining is mine):

The Firestore is a standalone harddrive that you attach to the camera via firewire. When you're done filming, you connect the Firestore to your editing system and download you footage to the computer. It's a great way to increase the recording capability of the HVX200, since you aren't restricted by the P2 storage limit.
However, you can not do slow/fast motion with the firestore, as you can with the P2.

On the other hand, DV Rack is a software that you run on a computer to capture the footage coming directly off of the camera via firewire. It records on DV, or if you get the HDV pack, you can also record on HDV; it does not support DVCproHD like the HVX200 is capable of doing. Also, like the Firestore it can not record slow/fast motion, since the camera doesn't output that signal via firewire.

How do I tell who's right? (or are they both right and I'm just asking the wrong questions?) :huh: Is it time to get a new salesperson?

 

[Barry_Green]

He's completely wrong, but based on a common misconception. You can do slow-mo and fast-mo sequences to both the FireStore and DV Rack. What you can't do is put the camera in 720pN mode and then record externally. But external firewire recorders are smart enough to figure out how to work with the footage.

And, 60p doesn't have to be slow-mo anyway. Shoot 720/60p for a fantastic "live" look -- Fox and ABC and ESPN all broadcast in 720/60p.

 

[enehta]

I'm not entirely sure I understand your response. The part we care about most is getting the 60 frames in a second, since that's more information for us to analyze. Isn't the 720pN the only mode in which you can record the 60fps?

Or am I completely clue-free today (not surprising, given how tired I am) and am asking the utterly wrong questions?

 

[Barry_Green]

No -- you can shoot in regular 720/60p mode.

 

[ksteiger]

720P is capable of recording 60P. The PN modes are for 720 30PN and 720 24PN only. These modes capture only the needed frames to the P2 card. What you can not do is record 1080 60P. Only 1080 60i is possible. You can do 30P and 24P in 1080, just not 1080 60P, make sense...BUY IT. YOU'LL LIKE IT.

 

[THoff]

And that sales rep is also wrong about DV Rack not supporting DVCProHD. The HDV Powerpak he referenced has been discontinued and replaced by DV Rack 2.0 HD, which does support all of the HVX200 recording modes except native modes (the ones that can ONLY be recorded to P2 media and which aren't sent to the DV port).

 

[enehta]

Okay.

I'm starting to wrap my poor tortured brain around this. Please forgive me for using lay terms here, but I just tried to explain all this to my supervisor and got tongue-tied, so I need to make sure I have this straight. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

The camera can record 60fps in progressive mode when set to 720p (fewer pixels/frame), but only interlaced in 1080 mode (more pixels/frame).

While this camera is happy to record 720P 60p and 1080 60i, both of these modes (and any other variable frame rate mode) MUST be recorded to P2 media (with all the hotswapping that entails). Other modes can be exported directly to a computer or firestore, but in order to switch modes the camera needs to be turned off and turned back on again.

The limitation of how the 60fps data can be exported is a limitation of the camera (it just won't send that data through that port), not of the software/hardware the camera can be plugged into.

If I want to be able to take clean still images from the filmed footage, I want to be filming in progressive mode, not interlaced mode.

All this means that, if I want to record at 60fps, I'll only be able to record a few minutes at a time before having to swap P2 chips.


(I apologize for what may seem like beating a dead thread, but the more people in the room or the more equipment-juggling going on during our experiments, the less likely we are to get a genuine reaction from our subjects, which is bad, so I really want to be clear on the capabilities and necessary accessories before trying to incorporate the camera into our experiment.)


------
And now a few more questions:


When they say it's 1 min/GB on the cards, does that mean 1 min of playback (so ~30 frames) or 1 minute of input? And if it's the latter, how can it hold the same number of input minutes for both 30fps and 60fps?

Can anyone recommend a good intro guide to the different modes that I can direct my supervisor to? That's another thing I wasn't having much luck explaining.


And how do I figure out which accessories we need? Did the salesperson just have the "commission" gleam in his eye when he recommended the $500 tripod, or is that the low end of what we'd want?


(and ksteiger, you're on the right track, I know I'm going to enjoy this camera, I've been drooling at it for weeks, I just don't want my boss to get annoyed with me when I say it can do things that it turns out it can't...)

 

[Dick Campbell]

just wanted to add my two cents - make sure you are dealing with an authorized Panasonic dealer, whoever it is. there are a lot of non-authorized dealers out there.

 

[THoff]

The camera can record 60fps in progressive mode when set to 720p (fewer pixels/frame), but only interlaced in 1080 mode (more pixels/frame).

The HVX always processes progressively internally. In the case of 1080, it is forced to store the progressive image in an interlaced data stream because there is no 1080p broadcast format. It's still a progressive image, stored in two fields.

While this camera is happy to record 720P 60p and 1080 60i, both of these modes (and any other variable frame rate mode) MUST be recorded to P2 media (with all the hotswapping that entails).

You can't record anything but DV to tape. You can record all the HD formats to P2 media or a FS-100 or a computer using a DV connection.

Other modes can be exported directly to a computer or firestore, but in order to switch modes the camera needs to be turned off and turned back on again.

You only need to turn the camera off and back on if you use the camera to offload to a SBP2-compatible Firewire drive, a USB On-The-Go drive, or you mount the P2 cards on your computer as removeable drives by connecting the computer and the camera with a Firewire or USB cable.

The limitation of how the 60fps data can be exported is a limitation of the camera (it just won't send that data through that port), not of the software/hardware the camera can be plugged into.

You can record 60fps on a FS-100 or computer. You just cannot record native modes (which don't include duplicate frames) -- these are only useable withh P2 media.

If I want to be able to take clean still images from the filmed footage, I want to be filming in progressive mode, not interlaced mode.

True. But all of the HVX HD output is progressive, even when contained in an interlaced data stream.

All this means that, if I want to record at 60fps, I'll only be able to record a few minutes at a time before having to swap P2 chips.

The recording capacity depends on the recording format and framerate. Once a card fills up, the camera will automatically start writing to the other slot, and you can offload the card that is full to a computer using a PCMCIA slot/adapter or a P2 Store. If you record through the DV port, you can shoot for as long as you want.

When they say it's 1 min/GB on the cards, does that mean 1 min of playback (so ~30 frames) or 1 minute of input? And if it's the latter, how can it hold the same number of input minutes for both 30fps and 60fps?

It's one minute of output. In native mode, only the required frames are written to P2 media. If you are recording at 2fps (something the camera can do), it would take you 15 minutes to record 1 minute of NTSC video.

If you are NOT recording in a native mode, then the camera is forced to record the duplicate frames that will have to be removed during post. Thus 30fps and 60fps would have the same storage requirements, but half the frames from the 30fps recording would be flagged as duplicates.

Can anyone recommend a good intro guide to the different modes that I can direct my supervisor to? That's another thing I wasn't having much luck explaining.

http://abelcine.com/articles/images/pdf/aghvx200p_guidebook.pdf

And how do I figure out which accessories we need? Did the salesperson just have the "commission" gleam in his eye when he recommended the $500 tripod, or is that the low end of what we'd want?

Don't skimp on a good fluidhead tripod, you'll need it. What accessories you need depends on what you shoot. Don't forget audio, lighting etc.

 

[Barry_Green]

The camera can record 60fps in progressive mode when set to 720p (fewer pixels/frame), but only interlaced in 1080 mode (more pixels/frame).

Correct. 60p can only be recorded in 720 mode, there is no provision for 1080/60p. However, even though there are fewer pixels in the frame, there's not a significant difference in the amount of DETAIL that's recorded. Only about 20% less for 720p. 720/60p looks fantastic.

While this camera is happy to record 720P 60p and 1080 60i, both of these modes (and any other variable frame rate mode) MUST be recorded to P2 media (with all the hotswapping that entails).

No, you can also record them out the firewire port to an external recorder, such a sa DVCPRO-HD tape deck, a FireStore, or a computer. P2 cards are an option, they are not a requirement.

Other modes can be exported directly to a computer or firestore, but in order to switch modes the camera needs to be turned off and turned back on again.

ALL modes can be exported directly to a computer or firestore. And you don't have to turn it off or on to switch recording modes. The only time you have to turn it off/on is when switching between DV tape and P2 modes.

The limitation of how the 60fps data can be exported is a limitation of the camera (it just won't send that data through that port), not of the software/hardware the camera can be plugged into.

Well, yes, but there's a potential new device coming that will blow the doors totally off this. www.reel-stream.com sounds like they're close to announcing an Andromeda for the HVX, which would mean you could get 1920x1080 at 60 fps on your computer. But that would be an extra-cost modification, not something the HVX can do by itself.

If I want to be able to take clean still images from the filmed footage, I want to be filming in progressive mode, not interlaced mode.

Shoot in progressive, yes. The extracted stills will be soooooooo much better.

All this means that, if I want to record at 60fps, I'll only be able to record a few minutes at a time before having to swap P2 chips.

4 minutes on a 4gb card, 8 minutes on an 8gb, 16 minutes on a 16gb. Or you could use the FireStore and record for about 110 minutes, or record to an external DVCPRO-HD tape or to your computer; a 300gb hard drive could hold about 5 hours of footage.

When they say it's 1 min/GB on the cards, does that mean 1 min of playback (so ~30 frames) or 1 minute of input? And if it's the latter, how can it hold the same number of input minutes for both 30fps and 60fps?

Depends on what mode you're in and what frame rate. If you're shooting 60p, it's one minute of recording and one minute of playback. If you're shooting 24pN at 60 fps, it's one minute of recording and two and a half minutes of slow-mo playback.

And how do I figure out which accessories we need? Did the salesperson just have the "commission" gleam in his eye when he recommended the $500 tripod, or is that the low end of what we'd want?

$500 is cheap. The cheapest "pro" tripod I'd recommend would be the $1500 Cartoni Focus. Want sticker shock? Look up some of the top-end Sachtlers; $20,000 for a tripod is not unheard of. $500 would be the bare minimum I'd think of using to support an HVX.

 

[enehta]

Thank you all for your help! I'm getting a much clearer picture of what the camera can do (and believe me, I like what I'm seeing). In particular, thanks for the link to the guide - amazingly helpful.

One more question (for the moment) - what are the standard ways for backing up/storing the large quantities of data that this generates?

 

[ESTEBEVERDE]

Thank you all for your help! I'm getting a much clearer picture of what the camera can do (and believe me, I like what I'm seeing). In particular, thanks for the link to the guide - amazingly helpful.

One more question (for the moment) - what are the standard ways for backing up/storing the large quantities of data that this generates?

Hey enehta~

You are absolutely on the right track. If it makes any difference, UCSF, consistently on the top research institutions in the world, shoots on the HVX.

In fact, last I've heard they are looking at three + units to shoot all of their procedure work and PR spots on.

It would seem you are conducting studies of psychology and physiology.

As you are interested in capturing facial expressions and their constituent movements I would highly suggest you purchase the HVX and record 720P 60p directly to Hard Disc Drive on a laptop/desktop. This will give you the most superior and highest def images attainable anywhere near this price point. If you use an appropriately configured desktop, you can record for hours upon hours without touching your set up.

To get the best results I would recommend you invest a relatively small amount in priming yourselves so that you can make the best images.

For an indispensable primer in digital cinematography I highly recommend "Digital Cinema Filmmaker's Training Course' http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=54580 and Barry Green's HVX BootCamp DVD http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=74261

Though they are truly only a fraction of what a modest hardware package costs, these tools will arguably be the most important pieces of equipment you buy.

They teach both the fundamentals of being an HVX/Digital film mechanic and race car driver.

Best of Luck at Le Mans!

Estebe

 

[enehta]

Those guides sound incredibly useful, thanks for the heads-up. (and race-car driving sounds like a good backup career if they kick me out for having confused them about the camera... )

I'm amused. After all this headaching trying to figure out what features play well with what other features, I got the brochure from Panasonic in the mail, and it neatly answers my biggest question:

720p over 60p Mode
This is a VariCam-compatible mode for recording 60p-converted video....the unit can output a DVCPRO HD stream from the IEEE 1394 connector as it records. This lets you produce a backup copy using a connected external Hard Disk recorder..."

(Given that it's right next to the bit about being able to record at varying frame rates, I'm going to assume that "720p over 60p" is the same thing as 720p/60p, which is what I want...)

 

[ullanta]

Hi Enehta!

I just want to clarify, just in case it will help, in a different way...

There are two standard formats for HD video: 720p60 and 1080i60. 720p60 is of course 60 progressive frames per second; 1080i60 is 30 interlaced frames per second. For various reasons, in general, these have been the only formats that can be RECORDED or STREAMED. So, a 24p or variable framerate camera has to encode whatever other framerates it produces into one of these types of streams. So, 720p30 is streamed with two copies of each frame; 720p24 has 2 unique frames out of each five in the stream, etc. When dealing with tape, or streams, it has to be "over 60" - that is, encoded like this into one of the standard stream types.

The when the HVX writes to P2, it does this as a data writing operation, not as a stream, and thus it can save frames more efficiently. The "N" modes mentioned here (24pN, etc.) refer to a mode where the camera never duplicates frames just to fill out one of the standard stream types - it stores precisely the number of frames per second specified.

If you want to record to a directly to a computer (a Mac running FCP or a PC running DVRack or some such), the camera can't be in "N" or native mode - 'cause the firewire protocols are streaming, and thus must be 720p or 1080i. But the computer can remove the extra frames on-the-fly (at least FCP can; I'm not sure about DVRack but I'm pretty sure it can), and thus achieve the same storage efficiency.

So, to answer (some of) your questions,

1) You can record directly to a computer, Mac or PC, with the efficiency of "native mode", through the Firewire port.

2) You can record to P2 and the computer simultaneously at 720p60. Since 720p60 is always a full 100mbps, you wouldn't be using native mode for that anyway.

3) If your tripod won't be moving (that is, if the camera is not being moved on the tripod), you can use anything that'll hold the camera up, even a cheapo $19.99 special. If you want to pan/tilt the camera during a shot, that's where the need for an expensive tripod comes in. But if your research involves static shots, there's no need.

4) And, as corollary, if your research involves static shots, forget the P2 altogether, capture directly to a computer, forget the swapping, which would be distracting to you and your subjects.

5) No offense to all my regular DVXUser pals - but be careful of a lot of some things expressed here that are filmmaker concerns that may have nothing to do with your situation (like fluid-head tripods!). I'm not saying anyone's wrong... just be sure all advice is applicable to you, as your situation is very different from the typical ones faced by the typical DVXUsers.

-Barry

 

[enehta]

So, 720p30 is streamed with two copies of each frame; 720p24 has 2 unique frames out of each five in the stream, etc.

Why???


(I have several very confused people standing behind me trying to figure this out, and we don't have a clue as to why it duplicates frames instead of getting extra original ones)...

 

[David Jimerson]

Because if you're shooting 24 fps or 30 fps, you don't want the extra frames. You do need to fill up the stream which requires 60 fps, so frame duplication is the only way to do it and still maintain the 24 fps or 30 fps aesthetic.

If you're shooting 60 fps, then each frame is unique.

 

[Barry_Green]

Firewire transport is 720/60fps only. If you want your footage to look like 30p, it means duplicating each frame. If you want it to look like 24p, it means duplicating each even frame, and triplicating (is that a word?) each odd frame.

It's the same process as used when broadcasting a 24fps film on 720/60p HDTV.