Do we even need 16gb cards? Not I.

Richard Sutcliffe said:
I have never had a card fail on me but I am not naieve enough to imagine it cant happen. Nor am I arrogant enough to state that I would never accidentally format a full card, drop one over the side of a boat or out of a chopper.
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Nothing wrong with being careful, Richard. I was just having a friendly dig at your pessimism!

Personally, I like to trust modern technology - and as I'm such a disorganised slob, I try to keep all my data in one place otherwise I can't find it! So I work with huge external HDs but I'm cautious enough to backup my data twice wherever possible.

I take your point about losing data from large P2s as there's no practical way to backup in the field (unless you want to walk around with a P2 Store in your back pocket) so what you say makes real sense.

But I'd argue that (certainly in my case) small P2 cards OUT of the camera would be more vulnerable than a couple of larger cards which stay IN the camera. If you look around my office, most of my MiniDV tapes are neatly labelled and "filed" away in date order in a drawer - but there are some unidentified ones, lurking under piles of old paperwork, behind my monitor etc (there should be a law about it really, what a mess).

It's a personal choice - you prefer to work your way and I prefer mine. It's just a pity those of us who'd prefer the bigger cards have no choice at the moment.

The title of your topic is "Do we even need 16gb cards? Not I" - and it appears the replies you've had have convinced you that we do!

That's good - for two reasons.
1) There are forums such as this where we can debate this stuff in a friendly manner.
2) That you have the courage to openly admit you'd changed your mind.

But if I could get my hands on a couple of 16 GB P2s right now, I'd be a very happy bunny!.

Andy
 
andynick said:
As for transferring large files, I have no worries on that score.
We used to fret about transferring 10 MB a few years ago - now, I often transfer 100 / 200 GB while I make a cup of coffee. Times are moving on, folks.

Andy
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I think this might win as the most profound statement in the thread. Now we think that 8GB is great and we'd love a boxful of them. But if given a 16GB, I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone who would rather have an 8. Those of us used to tape don't like the inconvenience of swapping media every couple of takes, but those who are used to film think that the 20 minutes of 1080 footage provided by 2 8GB cards is a luxury compared to 11 minute film reels.

One part of me wants to say that more storage capability is always better--and if I've ever trusted any media, I trust P2s. But the rest of me realizes the foolishness of having an entire feature film in camera without any backup. But hey, nobody's telling us that we can't still use the old workflow with the higher capacity cards.

In conclusion, I think the 16s would be handy, and I'd like a pair of 32s, but maybe the 128s would be a bit much. At that point, just get a Cineporter or a Firestore.
 
Where is the major area of risk of failure for a P2?

- THE CONNECTOR? Repeated mechanical contact of the connector pins is eroding
insertion after insertion. Even if hundreds of thousand of insertions are guaranteed, here the possible (even with low probability) failure is a function of time. This is the "P2 moving part area". The risk of mechanics!

- THE MEMORY? [SIZE=-1]The SD chip has a built-in dynamic defect management and error correction system. So, if a memory cell fails, the cell is no longer adressable, and date is stored elsewhere.
This error detection and "workaround" is more powerful than any passive parity bit, or CRC, where the correction must be handled by the (external) host. We don't even speak about the "poor spinning sector" on an HDD even more exposed to failure (external security = RAID1 = Mirroring).

So, if you get a large P2, you probably would swap it less and you rely on the SD protection scheme (proactive and static).

If you stick to smaller P2s, you just increase the mechanical risk (on the long-term).

For me it's cool to have 4 x 8Gig with the recent price drop,
and my lazyness finds it cool to have 2 x 16gig!
But either way, memory failure is out of my fears.

The new NAND chips would increase capacity at a shorter pace that expected, and 128 Gig represents 13 times less plug-out/plug-in!
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I use the FS-100 (as most of you know by now) because I have to shoot very long takes on a documentary, where we are not able/allowed to touch the equipment. We have to let the camera roll untouched for long times. P2 cards don't cut it.

But when I can get two hours of 1080 on P2 cards in-camera, I'd probably drop the FS-100. Until then, P2 cards are of limited use to me.

In fact, if it weren't for the FS-100, my documentary would not be shot on the HVX-200, due to the lack of long recording times.

So bring on the larger P2 cards, I'm ready for them!
 
More 8 gig cards and more sleeves. Get away with the tape mechanism and add 2 more sleeves. If you have four sleeves you have more 'room' and time to offload. Adding extra sleeves and get away with the tape is more tapeless future than 128G cards for now.
 
It's all about how, what, and where you are shooting..
If your on a 10 day shoot, and you can fit it on 1 card, but you CAN d/l the footage, YOU WILL!

Just because you have a 128GB card doesn't mean you will always use it like that.. BUT YOU CAN!!!!!!!!!!!! You can shoot all day, and get shots that other people would have missed while re-loading.. AND you don't need a laptop on SET! (something I'm SOOO OVER!!)

You will have the ONLY SOLID STATE CAMERA in the world without a CORD that could record for hours!! (or until your batt dies) SAFELY!

SCREW 16's, just bring on the 128's...
 
rapsucks said:
but maybe the 128s would be a bit much. At that point, just get a Cineporter or a Firestore.
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Disagree 100%. Once the 128's are out, nobody will ever use a CinePorter or FireStore again.
 
What about the stuff the FS-100 does that the HVX can't on P2 cards? I'll keep my
FS-100 for those uses for sure! I'm doing tons of time lapse for my documentary on settings the HVX just won't do.
 
That's fine, but the point that Barry is making is that the Firestore, Cineporter, etc. are considered to be interem solutions until p2 cards become large enough and cheap enough. Once they are, why would anyone want to "have" to attach and power another device, when you can just get 10 hours of record time on two tiny p2 cards.

You don't have to worry about the bulk of an external recording device, battery life, or "fragile" connections.

My only concern is how quickly (or slowly) the increase in card size is occuring. With the death of the pcmcia slot in laptops, and the speed at which other storage options are moving (particularly just an sd card) what is going to happen to the p2 card as a recording format.

I am very glad to see new cameras coming with p2 cards. That is reassuring. But, I also wonder where will the camera world be by the time p2 cards reach those capacities that they have "no" drawbacks. Basically I worry a bit about how far p2 card sizes will actually make it before panny deems them obsolete and moves to something else.

Larger p2 is what everyone is waiting for. That is when you can take true advantage of the tapeless workflow that p2 technology offers.

I have seen the light and hate going back to tape now. My dad gave me some mini dv tapes to capture, render, and burn to dvd for him. By the time I had captured the first hour of tape, I could have been nearly finished with all three hours, and ready to burn to dvd.

Jason
 
DOH! Okay, Ben has a point, and like always the words "nobody will ever" and "never" and "always" will always have exceptions (how's that for a quadruple-inverted conflicting-with-itself sentence?!) :)

But I would also figure that by the time the 128GB cards come out, and surely they're at least two years away, there could also be plenty of firmware updates between now and then. Maybe even an HVX200A or 200B or something...
 
I'd hope so. The one thing I like about beta testing the FS-100 3.0 is that it writes the files as DVCPRO-HD QuickTime. If FCP updates to recognize MXF native, and the HVX updates to do time lapse and snap shots like the FS-100 can, plus use the "Reels" feature of the FS-100 to organize clips during your shoot, well, I'd be in heaven...

But until someone brings anything to market, I don't have many options outside of the FS-100. I'm eagerly anticipating upgrades to all the devices, I hope they're what we need, and don't take a zillion years to happen. I need to shoot, edit, deliver, today. I have to pay this months bills with this stuff. So, forgive me for being a bit of a downer on occation. I tend to be big on what I can do today, not two years from now. But, two years from now, I'm sure we'll be in a whole new ballgame.
 
I find it curious that I have a high level of confidence with video tape, with all the gears and pulleys and little mechanical arms, but I am little nervous with the P2 cards.

I recently shot a 3-day green screen project with two rented 8gig cards. Neither the production company, the editor nor the freelance director had used this system. It worked out very well, but the editor and I made sure we did not proceed too far into each show without transfering the footage from the cards on to both a laptop and an extranal drive. Then and only then would we change the set.

Large capacity cards would be excellent - but I must admit I would still want to pull images off before I would fill a large card. At least until I gain more confidence with the system.

Just as a point of interest, I purchased an 8gig card yesterday, paying $1250.00 CDN.
 
I spent time with my camera on someone elses commercial shoot and they stuck with the pair of eight (8) gig cards I have. They actually worked out very well when offloaded to a PC laptop. I think, personally, that I'll take advantage of the price-drop in the two available sizes--used and new-- instead of purchasing sixteen gigs or anything larger.

I also think that someone mentioned offload times increasing. That's another setback for me. I'd rather be able to offload an 8gig and still have two or three ready to roll for continuous shooting rather than spending lots of time offloading sixteen gigs. It also allows me to manage data being moved from say a hard-drive to DVD's a bit faster; that's a theory of course.

Barry_Green tipped me off to what Solid State was really about, and I'm really looking forward to the price drops and large capacity solid state externals and internal drives; I'll probably save my money and wait for a SSD Laptop, as well.

For a lot of people, 16gig cards will help them make the switch over to P2. I'm pretty much okay with the idea of about a quad of eight gig P2 Cards.

Edit-- Although if there is an HVX200a or b, because people have said there won't be and that little thought is kinda "grr"", we'll just have to see what the upgrades are.
 
With the HVX an "a" or "b" might be implemented through downloadable firmware updates, so I would expect the current model to stay "current" longer than the DVX did.
 
Barry_Green said:
Two 128's would give you 10 hours of footage in-camera at once, in 720/24pN. You'd never swap a card, ever... shoot all day long if you wanted to, edit straight from the cards when the project's done shooting, and then archive them when you're finished...

A 90-minute feature film could shoot at a 6.5:1 ratio and have every clip you ever shot be active on the cards at once, without ever swapping cards or offloading...
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EXACTLY!!! :-)
 
Imagine this: Panasonic bundels the camera with a free 128GB card. Would anyone say "No thanks" and buy a 4GB card? No.
It doesn´t matter what and how you shoot: the bigger size will always be favored (when the price is right!). If you can live with 4GB cards and/or save money that way then fine. But bigger cards give you the option to record less on them if you choose so. But smaller cards simply run out of capacity. They give you no option. Stop shooting or insert another card.

So if you are afraid you could lose stuff, get more cards and "distribute the risk". But IMO having 1 big card that is taken out of the camera fewer times is safer than small cards being swapped constantly.
Hell yes give me 16GB for the price of 4GB and I am a happy camper.
 
You are confident with tapes and mechanism because you are familiar with, not because you studied first the magnetic/tape error factor.

You are confident with HDD and RAIDed one because you are familiar with, not
because you studied the spinning magnetic HDD error factor.

You will become confident with P2 technology either by becoming familiar with (no having failure), or by knowing better FIRST any technology you gonna use.

P2 fundamental component is SD which includes a dynamic error management and error correction, some internal processing stores and checks data in safe mem cell.

So influencing workflow and takes because of "P2 fear" or thinking a large P2 is even more dangerous is PURE NONSENSE.

Some are going to accept to store 100Go, and more, on an upcoming CinePorter, with not RAIDed HDD, or using a FS-100, with mechanisms and bad sector risk, but are reluctant to rely in P2.

It is like working on video files in a studio on non RAIDed HDD, what can guarantee you one of your disk won't fail during a studio session? The habit? The luck?

You cannot separate functionality skills from technology knowledge, because all area of Digital Video rely HEAVILY on these devices.

P2 is not a new religion !
 
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