Will you make crap work if that's what they want?

[Zak Forsman]

not to stir the pot, but having achieved a certain level of quality, my clients respect my company to the extent that when they give notes, they come to expect a dialogue with the producer about what those changes would encompass. they know we are out to make the best of every piece. so quite often, we successfully talk them out of making bad decsisions on how to shape their content.

 

[Sad Max]

And misspelling while you're paraphrasing... what's a whinge?

whinge (hw

nj, w

nj)intr.v. whinged, whing·ing, whing·es Chiefly British To complain or protest, especially in an annoying or persistent manner.

[Dialectal alteration of Middle English whinsen, from Old English hwinsian.]
whing

er n.
whing

ing·ly adv.


Don't jump to the conclusion that an unfamiliar word, is a mis-spelled word.

 

[mrWr0ng]

Siiiiiigh.

I'm with Max.

If you really think what we're saying is "never aim for higher," then you haven't understood a word of what you've been told here.

No point in repeating it again, either.

I didn't say that's what you were saying. I'm saying that I don't want to look at it that way, and the overwhelming majority of opinions here are "Clients suck. Deal with it or get out of the business." I'm going to deal with it. I'm going to give my best even when I don't like it. I'm going to be in this business because, if I don't like dealing with crappy clients when I love the work that I do, there's no way I could deal with having a career where I deal with crappy clients and I DON'T love the work that I do.

That said, to me what is important is that I aim higher. I'm not saying you're telling me to settle. I'm saying what I think and feel, and what I'm going to do as I adjust to dealing with clients. I will be as professional as I can possibly be to get this work done and get going, but "You're going to have a career full of dealing with crappy people, suck it up and deal with it" is not going to be the best way for me to settle into things - but keeping my eyes on the prize is.

 

[D_and_G]

That said, to me what is important is that I aim higher. I'm not saying you're telling me to settle. I'm saying what I think and feel, and what I'm going to do as I adjust to dealing with clients. I will be as professional as I can possibly be to get this work done and get going, but "You're going to have a career full of dealing with crappy people, suck it up and deal with it" is not going to be the best way for me to settle into things - but keeping my eyes on the prize is.

I understand where you're coming from, but a large part depends on what you are willing to sacrifice to get where you want to go.

There are a number of topics people brought up, though. First - professionalism. If you take a job, finish it. Unless they are abusive in the extreme or contravene workplace safety - finish it. Put every ounce of creative energy into excellence, even if they are bent on destroying the input. Fight fair for your vision, and when the job is done, if you can't put your imprimatur on the product, then you can revel in the work ethic that went into it. Like a finely tuned instrument; it only gets better for the effort.

Second - long term goals. There are a variety of ways to get to the point of where your creative and technical passion can reach the input stage. There are too many to mention. However, generally, if you choose the independent/entrpreneurial route, there will be sacrifices. You can work for the cash to finance your own projects (either in the union or freelance), or you can design your work to a) finance your own projects and/or strive to work with like minded companies and individuals. The latter choice involves far more sacrifice. You'll be turning down work, taking specific work to fine tune skill sets (even if it's way out of your bailiwick), and monetarily falling behind your peers who are buying houses & cars etc... It's a continual process of sacrifice and highly targeted decision making. What you can't have is 'having it both ways' - those who've made it to the place of origination (not just being a hired hand) either have worked their way up the totem poll (dealing with crappy jobs, mixed personalities and politics etc...) or have sacrificed financially and ridden the entrepreneurial rollercoaster to get there.

That reminds me something John Sayles once said (on why he mortgatged everything he owned to shoot his scripts) ..."Because I couldn't take one more meeting with those f***ers and their notes".Like I said - choices. Hope that helps...:beer:

 

[mrWr0ng]

I unfortunately don't have much left to mortgage at this point. Thieves broke into my car over the weekend and stole all my audio equipment, including some equipment given to me by some previous employers - employers who, after skipping out on my last check, now are calling to demand the equipment back, claiming it was loaned, not given.

I guess this is all part of that learning experience?

 

[eignacio]

I unfortunately don't have much left to mortgage at this point. Thieves broke into my car over the weekend and stole all my audio equipment, including some equipment given to me by some previous employers - employers who, after skipping out on my last check, now are calling to demand the equipment back, claiming it was loaned, not given.

I guess this is all part of that learning experience?

Yup - Never leave valuable equipment in your car. I had my light kit stolen from my car a few months ago...sigh...

 

[mrWr0ng]

Yeah, I knew well enough to take my camera out - I brought a bunch of equipment to a film shoot which went from 7am to 7pm. I wound up, that morning, putting my sound equipment *back* in the car because they had a dedicated audio guy and i didn't want to get our gear mixed up, then forgot about it when i drove home. Ironically, had I just allowed our gear to intermingle, I would still have it.

 

[SPZ]

not to stir the pot, but having achieved a certain level of quality, my clients respect my company to the extent that when they give notes, they come to expect a dialogue with the producer about what those changes would encompass. they know we are out to make the best of every piece. so quite often, we successfully talk them out of making bad decsisions on how to shape their content.

Cygnet, its your company, you are not merely an employee. You take your clients. The original poster works for someone else, he doesn't go after clients.

The only thing here that would make me question making this video would be the ethical and moral question raised by the original poster: He said this is a video for a philantrophical organization, that turns out to be just a cover for networking. Now if this is indeed the truth, and if I was in that position, and heard this from then employers, I would have to think seriously on my decision. because one thing is being paid to do something crap- other is to help people take advantage of other people in an unethical way. I have my principles. I wouldn't feel very happy on working on such an environment everyday, for sure. I'd rather do weddings than to hore myself to something that's taking from people in need.

Now if its just a simple video to show to the employees of the philantrophy group, and where the bosses want to have airtime, even tough they are crap speakers and you have a lot better footage? I would do it in a sec. ( Heck, after doing some big commercials for my employers, I'm doing a Christmas "corporate" video, and you bet I'm putting them in there with airtime- they trust you, they like you, you do more, you create more.)

EDIT- Also here's another example from my brief professional life. I worked on a main soap opera production studio as a second assistant director. I was there for 3 months. I heard the same crap of "be happy to be able to be working on what you love- you''ll eventually get there". I quit after 3 months. Why? I was second Assistant AD. Then I would have to move up to A.D. Then probably go to Director... Of Soap Operas- its just sitting in a O.B Van saying "camera one on, camera two, on" and producing stuff like in a factory. I would hate the craft I love for the rest of my life". And this would probably take 4 to 5 years of my life in order to get to soap opera director status. I went to a smaller company on a less competitive market, with my portfolio, and was hired as a director. The company merely produced in DV. Suffice to say, I've learned a LOT more concerning all parts of the craft, earned a bit less (in the beginning), and ended up now with a relatively important directing and producing job in the biggest employer in this town/country. (I'm not going to reveal this )

BUT you have to really be confident about your portfolio and your directing capabilities to do so. Before I entered the soap business, I had already directed some short films (CRAP) and done a documentary (not so crap)that went to some festivals. Also, I had the oportunitty to work with the smaller company BEFORE entering the soap opera production studio- so I had an option. DO NOT Kamikaze yourself before having everything planned out for your next move- may it be a short film, weddings, your own company, another job, etc. You've got to eat!

And being single also helps- I wouldn't see myself quiting ANYTHING if I had someone else to take care of .

 

[JasonFox]

You're already working on it, so you have to do what they want. That's how it works. The key is to turn down projects *before* you agree to do them if they don't meet the standard that you set for yourself. It won't hurt if you even keep doing work for these guys that isn't great as long as you're doing other stuff, too.

But you know what? If you're at a place in your life where you can refuse work and only go for what you think is great, I say do it. (Assuming you're not a jerk about it.) You only go around once. If you're gonna fail, fail at trying to do something great.

 

[Captain Pierce]

First off, mrWr0ng, it's great that you're bringing this kind of dedication and drive to these nonprofits. That said, as an A/V rental guy with some experience in showing these sorts of videos once they're done, there's a couple of things I'd point out.

I think the biggest assumption you're operating under that I'd question is the one that a more "artistic" product that's slightly off-message is going to be more effective than a less artistic one that's on-message and has people with name recognition but is somewhat boring. I don't know that that's the case. I know from personal experience (and you may, as well, from the group you work for) that these sorts of groups can be very concerned about exactly what message is being sent. I was once given a video produced by a local TV station to show at a fundraising gala--in a rare display of industriousness, the video was ready several days before the event rather than several hours --and my contact with the group happened to mention as we watched it that there were a couple of things he would have preferred not to have in the video, as they weren't events sponsored by his group, but rather by another group at his group's facilities. They're groups that work together often, but for some reason (and I never did ask why) he wasn't comfortable having their activities in his video. As I had a couple of days, a brand new mini-DV camcorder, and a copy of Pinnacle Studio, I was able to snip out these two (very short) segments and make him much happier. Your average attendee at the event never would have noticed the difference, but he sure did. So I guess what I'm saying is never underestimate the importance of the message--or, more specifically, the group's vision of their message.

Also, in my experience, almost nobody in the audience at a fundraising gala is giving the video their 100% undivided attention. Even if they are, they're unlikely to remember everything that happens. But almost everyone should take away one or two key things from it--and I don't think that the speakers are going to be it. I wouldn't be surprised if people remember the names more than the words. What I think people take away more is the parts of the video that show the end result of what the group does, and IMO that's where you can make the difference. The group I mentioned before, that I did the hack editing job for, was one I'd never heard of before I did their fundraising event. The video they had was an old VHS, played so many times it was starting to have serious issues--which looked even worse when played on a 9x12' screen--but there was one thing in it that I've never forgotten. It's a "summer camp" for people with disabilities, and they've spent a lot of time and effort figuring out how to safely let disabled kids do as many of the same things other kids do at camp as possible, including how to let a kid in a wheelchair "climb" a tree. Watching that, seeing how much fun that kid was having--and how happy his mother was watching him--immediately sold me on this cause, and over the years I've grown more and more involved with them. (Even to the point of shooting some video for them with my company's rental DVX100, and boy, did I learn a lot about the camera then, mostly by doing everything totally wrong the first day. )

Even if the rest of the video is awful, if you can find that one "eureka" moment and get it in the final product, then you can sit back and know that you've done some good.

 

[oneinfiniteloop]

Don't know if this has been said or not, but "some for the reel, some for the meal."