Capt Quirk
Veteran
[SIZE=-1]Marsellus: The night of the fight, you may feel a slight sting. That's pride f^*king with you. F^*k pride. Pride only hurts, it never helps. ...[/SIZE]
Will you make crap work if that's what they want?
- Thread starter mrWr0ng
- Start date
To be honest, it's not pride about my work. I am proud of my work, certainly, but a great deal of my frustration came from what the video could be - they're a philanthropy group, when I went into this video, I had the feeling that making an effective, eye-opening video could bring new people to this group, to help others. That many, many more people could get the help they need if the philanthropy group got many new, excited members who wanted to make a difference.
If someone asked me to make a corporate video, then I'll make it as crappy as they want. This tme, I really felt like this video could make a difference for somebody - and I'm more disillusioned about what the group was about (I thought it was about helping people, but the CEO has basically told me that it's about getting rich people together so that she can meet them and network - philanthropy is just the cover), and going from having the ability to help people to making an ego-driven video for her and her friends to get them together and network with other rich people.
If that's what it was about from the beginning, then no problem. But I didn't take a job at a non-profit to do that. I went non-profit to do something good. It's not about me as an artist, because I always work on my own projects, I write, i flm, I get better. But this... well, it is what it is. I'll make it, and it will suck. And hopefully one day I'll get to actually do something to help other people instead of roundabout schmoozing.
If someone asked me to make a corporate video, then I'll make it as crappy as they want. This tme, I really felt like this video could make a difference for somebody - and I'm more disillusioned about what the group was about (I thought it was about helping people, but the CEO has basically told me that it's about getting rich people together so that she can meet them and network - philanthropy is just the cover), and going from having the ability to help people to making an ego-driven video for her and her friends to get them together and network with other rich people.
If that's what it was about from the beginning, then no problem. But I didn't take a job at a non-profit to do that. I went non-profit to do something good. It's not about me as an artist, because I always work on my own projects, I write, i flm, I get better. But this... well, it is what it is. I'll make it, and it will suck. And hopefully one day I'll get to actually do something to help other people instead of roundabout schmoozing.
Barry, I love the painting analogy...so true.
My entry in the video business was some 23 years ago. I have worked in broadcast at several local affiliates, I have worked for a production company that had shows on a network that was almost criminal, I have worked in a post production shop, I have run my own consulting business, I have worked for an equipment manufacturer and I have run a production company of my own. Now I work for a major corporation and run my business on the side.
What is the common thread here? Crap.
Every day someone comes up with a half-baked idea or something that just MUST make it into the project you are working on whether it belongs or not.
I used to get mad, I secretly hated the know nothing producers and directors that were so full of themselves on ego trips. I used to change it behind their backs, especially the number of frames on a dissolve or a page turn that was too fast. I thought I knew it all. I thought I was right and they were wrong and I stressed about it a lot.
Then one day I woke up and realized this is the business we are in. There are no rights or wrongs, there are only things you are paid to do. I figured out that my best and most appreciated skill was polishing crap. That is my art, I could always look at someone else's pile and make it better. I'm not saying I could make it great, there are things that no one can save. I had the chance to make it better than it would have been. I collaborate with the client in such a way as to say "What if we did this?"....after a while if they think they own the idea they will buy into it, if not it's their loss and I don't take it personally.
When you look at the collective of potential clients there are very few perfect ones. There are a few nice, constructive people that you will bend over backwards for and the A**holes and control freaks that any you can't get out of the bay fast enough. There are the clueless ones that say "I don't know, what do you want to do?" I always think that I would like to go home at that point and lastbut not least, there are the endless committees in which everyone has a different opinion and a rigid deadline.
My point is that your mental well being and satisfaction depends on YOUR attitude not theirs. I started with 25 other students in the business and only 2 are still working at it. Why? I believe it was an ability to learn the business, have good skills and to put ego aside and be productive.
I try to remember that I have gotten paid and made a decent living doing something that I love. I always save my self-esteem and my sanity by trying to make it better and then I leave it alone and let it go.
Oh yeah, don't ever put your name on something that really sucks. Just take the check and say thank you.
Do what you love, and if you can't deal with the grief find something else that gels with your soul. Life is too short
Cheers,
Kurt reitz
My entry in the video business was some 23 years ago. I have worked in broadcast at several local affiliates, I have worked for a production company that had shows on a network that was almost criminal, I have worked in a post production shop, I have run my own consulting business, I have worked for an equipment manufacturer and I have run a production company of my own. Now I work for a major corporation and run my business on the side.
What is the common thread here? Crap.
Every day someone comes up with a half-baked idea or something that just MUST make it into the project you are working on whether it belongs or not.
I used to get mad, I secretly hated the know nothing producers and directors that were so full of themselves on ego trips. I used to change it behind their backs, especially the number of frames on a dissolve or a page turn that was too fast. I thought I knew it all. I thought I was right and they were wrong and I stressed about it a lot.
Then one day I woke up and realized this is the business we are in. There are no rights or wrongs, there are only things you are paid to do. I figured out that my best and most appreciated skill was polishing crap. That is my art, I could always look at someone else's pile and make it better. I'm not saying I could make it great, there are things that no one can save. I had the chance to make it better than it would have been. I collaborate with the client in such a way as to say "What if we did this?"....after a while if they think they own the idea they will buy into it, if not it's their loss and I don't take it personally.
When you look at the collective of potential clients there are very few perfect ones. There are a few nice, constructive people that you will bend over backwards for and the A**holes and control freaks that any you can't get out of the bay fast enough. There are the clueless ones that say "I don't know, what do you want to do?" I always think that I would like to go home at that point and lastbut not least, there are the endless committees in which everyone has a different opinion and a rigid deadline.
My point is that your mental well being and satisfaction depends on YOUR attitude not theirs. I started with 25 other students in the business and only 2 are still working at it. Why? I believe it was an ability to learn the business, have good skills and to put ego aside and be productive.
I try to remember that I have gotten paid and made a decent living doing something that I love. I always save my self-esteem and my sanity by trying to make it better and then I leave it alone and let it go.
Oh yeah, don't ever put your name on something that really sucks. Just take the check and say thank you.
Do what you love, and if you can't deal with the grief find something else that gels with your soul. Life is too short
Cheers,
Kurt reitz
I have a web / print design company and I run into this same problem. It's usually worse when dealing with women. Once I had a client (husband & wife) who wanted a site to sell health products. I met with them and some of the first words from the womens mouth were "I like pink & gold, and fushia colors". I left the meeting with her burgandy sweater, a pink belt with a gold buckle, and a magazine clipping for color reference.
I explained to them that those colors weren't exactly right for a health type website. So I gave them 3 layouts with her colors, and 2 with mine. They loved mine and that's what we went with.
I too have a hard time with clients, especially the ones that have Corel and want to design thier own stuff, (nephew art). I take what they have and give them an example of what it could look like when I do it and they always seem to go with mine. I just do it tastefully and not try to downgrade thier "design" abilities.
Been where you're at. I have a friend/business associate who hires me to do websites for him (he's an IT guy), and he told me the same thing after his client wanted something crappy looking, "do what they want and get paid, if they want a seafoam green background, give it to them".
I explained to them that those colors weren't exactly right for a health type website. So I gave them 3 layouts with her colors, and 2 with mine. They loved mine and that's what we went with.
I too have a hard time with clients, especially the ones that have Corel and want to design thier own stuff, (nephew art). I take what they have and give them an example of what it could look like when I do it and they always seem to go with mine. I just do it tastefully and not try to downgrade thier "design" abilities.
Been where you're at. I have a friend/business associate who hires me to do websites for him (he's an IT guy), and he told me the same thing after his client wanted something crappy looking, "do what they want and get paid, if they want a seafoam green background, give it to them".
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Then stop whining about it and QUIT. Some things -- like the things everyone here is trying to tell you -- you can only learn by experience.mrWr0ng said:
DC
Cinematographiliac
I've been there. If you're very dissatisfied with any projects you've worked on, do one or both of the following:mrWr0ng said:
1. Don't put it on your reel.
2. Have your name taken off the credits (or somehow downgraded to maybe some particular aspect that you do like. If they question this, you can say something like, "I'm very happy that you like the work I've I've done for you and I will continue to deliver what you ask of me. However, I'm personally dissatisfied with this particular project because I feel it isn't representitve of my best work. And I only want to take credit for a given project when I feel I have achieved these personal goals."
Keep an eye out for bigger and better opportunities elsewhere. Until then, just keep grabbing the money, man. Continue to do what they ask but be sure to carefully input your professional opinion when appropriate.
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Oh, my name won't be going on the credits anyways, they won't allow it. The only names that go on the video are theirs, per the rules. The only way anyone would ever know I made it is when I stick the good version on my demo reel.
Yes, I know that a great part of the industry is dealing with egotistical hacks and just getting by and taking whatever to get the job done and get the money and go. Well, it will work for now, but I'm going to do everything in my power to get out of that situation as soon as I can. I didn't get into video to do it for other people, I got into it to make movies for myself, so please excuse if I won't feel satisfied doing bad work for others, even if they're paying for it.
I will take everyone's suggestions into account, give them the video they're asking for, and remove myself emotionally from it. I will deliver the product that they want, and then I will focus on getting out of the situation by creating beautiful and intriguing work on the side, until that in and of itself becomes my dayjob.
I realise that I'm very lucky to even HAVE a dayjob in my career field, that it encompasses what I want to do, and that many people could only consider themselves so lucky. It's not something I'm just going to throw away, but I really, really want to do more, and make great things, rather than get stuck in a cycle of making bad things just to get by.
Yes, I know that a great part of the industry is dealing with egotistical hacks and just getting by and taking whatever to get the job done and get the money and go. Well, it will work for now, but I'm going to do everything in my power to get out of that situation as soon as I can. I didn't get into video to do it for other people, I got into it to make movies for myself, so please excuse if I won't feel satisfied doing bad work for others, even if they're paying for it.
I will take everyone's suggestions into account, give them the video they're asking for, and remove myself emotionally from it. I will deliver the product that they want, and then I will focus on getting out of the situation by creating beautiful and intriguing work on the side, until that in and of itself becomes my dayjob.
I realise that I'm very lucky to even HAVE a dayjob in my career field, that it encompasses what I want to do, and that many people could only consider themselves so lucky. It's not something I'm just going to throw away, but I really, really want to do more, and make great things, rather than get stuck in a cycle of making bad things just to get by.
I must respectfully disagree. I don't think it's unprofessional at all to want more, to want to achieve your dreams - your professionalism comes in to the work you do to position yourself there. I want to live my life according to what I want to do, I have to struggle and work hard to get there. That's where my professionalism comes in. But to want more? That's hardly unprofessional.
Your professionalism comes into play in *how* you do the work that helps to position you, there.
What you've been on about, doesn't read as 'wanting more' and aiming to 'achieve your dreams;' it reads as agonizing and grumbling and bitching and whining about having to deliver to your clients the awful trashy stupid embarrassing product, that they want and are paying you to provide - and a professional delivers, on budget and to schedule, without the agonizing, without the grumbling, and above all, without the whining.
I feel pretty safe, supposing that everyone here wants 'more,' whether it's greater creative latitude, or access to more resources, or increased artistic and technical proficiency. Which is irrelevant, to buckling down and performing like a pro, without complaining like an amateur, when you're being paid by clients who have sufficient confidence in you to look to you for what they want.
What you've been on about, doesn't read as 'wanting more' and aiming to 'achieve your dreams;' it reads as agonizing and grumbling and bitching and whining about having to deliver to your clients the awful trashy stupid embarrassing product, that they want and are paying you to provide - and a professional delivers, on budget and to schedule, without the agonizing, without the grumbling, and above all, without the whining.
I feel pretty safe, supposing that everyone here wants 'more,' whether it's greater creative latitude, or access to more resources, or increased artistic and technical proficiency. Which is irrelevant, to buckling down and performing like a pro, without complaining like an amateur, when you're being paid by clients who have sufficient confidence in you to look to you for what they want.
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Capt Quirk
Veteran
If that is your problem, quit now. Why should they give a rat's ass about your dreams, what you want? Just be happy they are paying you to work.
Capt Quirk
Veteran
Is it starting to sink in? Pine all you want, but when someone else is in charge, it's about what they want- period. I agree it sucks hard at times, but that is the way the world turns.
In a way, but the only thing I really have issue with is that it also sounds like settling. Maybe they're not the same - my girlfriend, who's been in the industry much longer than I have, spent so much time dealing with "how things are" that she gave up trying to do more. She likes that I still think it can be done, and pushes me for that and for rejuvenating her own interest.
So, I will give them what they want, but I absolutely want to grow from here. I don't want to feel like I'm going to "settle" doing work I disagree with, though I will give it to them and do my best not to complain. If not complaining is working hard, then I'll definitely be working very hard
So, I will give them what they want, but I absolutely want to grow from here. I don't want to feel like I'm going to "settle" doing work I disagree with, though I will give it to them and do my best not to complain. If not complaining is working hard, then I'll definitely be working very hard
It's pretty clear you're not taking much to heart here, no matter how many experienced pros tell you the same thing over and over.
You're in for about a thousand miles of rough road if you don't want to do work you "disagree" with, and you dwell on that. You're going to be miserable. But hey, like I said, some things only experience can teach.
(BTW, don't think this experience is unique to only this industry. This is exactly what happens in every profession.)
You're in for about a thousand miles of rough road if you don't want to do work you "disagree" with, and you dwell on that. You're going to be miserable. But hey, like I said, some things only experience can teach.
(BTW, don't think this experience is unique to only this industry. This is exactly what happens in every profession.)
What am I not taking to heart? "You will be miserable for your entire career"? Or "You will make crap for your entire career because that's what people will pay you to make"? I'm not sure what I'm missing. If it's either, well that may be the case now, but I don't intend it to continue to be the case.
I don't want to make things I don't like, that's the end of story. But I will do it, because I will be professional. In school, I didn't want to do homework, but I did because I wanted good grades. Here, I will rise to the challenge and I will give my best, but I don't want nor expect to continue to be in a position where I have to do that.
Maybe I'm not being realistic about it, but you know what? If you don't aim higher, you'll never hit it. So yes, I am taking it to heart - I will stop complaining and I will do the work they ask of me. But I'm always going to strive for more.
I don't want to make things I don't like, that's the end of story. But I will do it, because I will be professional. In school, I didn't want to do homework, but I did because I wanted good grades. Here, I will rise to the challenge and I will give my best, but I don't want nor expect to continue to be in a position where I have to do that.
Maybe I'm not being realistic about it, but you know what? If you don't aim higher, you'll never hit it. So yes, I am taking it to heart - I will stop complaining and I will do the work they ask of me. But I'm always going to strive for more.
Not even remotely the same. It's about being sufficiently realistic and mature to recognize and work within the constraints that you have to deal with, in order to get certain things you want, and being enthusiastic and creative enough to produce work of quality and integrity, when you have the latitude and control to do that, and above all being perceptive enough to distinguish the difference, operate accordingly, and not whinge about it.mrWr0ng said:
Oh, gawd, I've been reduced to paraphrasing the Desiderata.
I give up.
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Capt Quirk
Veteran
And misspelling while you're paraphrasing... what's a whinge?
Siiiiiigh.mrWr0ng said:
I'm with Max.
If you really think what we're saying is "never aim for higher," then you haven't understood a word of what you've been told here.