Sad Max said:
All that, and John Boy, too. He's organic.
Will you make crap work if that's what they want?
- Thread starter mrWr0ng
- Start date
All that, and John Boy, too. He's organic.
Anhar_Miah
Veteran
if his paying for it, if the client wants crap, then let him have crap.
"I crap everyday, I least with this I get paid for it"
"I crap everyday, I least with this I get paid for it"
Barry_Green said:
I agree with this, but what if the owner, in the middle of the job, starts saying, "I want that to be green, put a big red X there... okay, now scrape that side bare and then smear some deer scat there... yeah, beautiful now paint a smiley face thee..."
I mean, at some point you're going to look at the thing you're making and really, truly hate it.
[quoteSo look at it from their perspective. And give them what they want. And if you can't do that, you shouldn't be in the business. Get a day job and make your art at night, to your own specifications. But by golly, if someone hires you to do something for them, you should do your very, very best to give them EXACTLY what they want, to the best of your abilities, no questions asked. And you should take pride in doing that.[/QUOTE]
But if I am giving them crap, then am I really giving to the best of my abilities? This is the heart of my problem - I believe in giving my best, every time I work. For everything that I do, I want it to be my signature and be the best that I can do. I don't feel this is me being the best that I can be.
I have made the decision time and time again to continue working on it in spite of how I feel about it, but every time they see a new version and give me a list of changes that take them away from the very message they're telling me to create, I have to ask myself again.
I will keep working on it, finish the best version that I can possibly make, but I fear getting stuck in a cycle of creating crap because that's what's asked for, and not be able to deliver to the best of my abilities when called upon.
Yes, that's true.mrWr0ng said:
And,
It Does Not Matter.
Not one tiny little bit.
Seriously, if you can't set aside your personal standards and judgment and just give the client what they are @^#&*! paying you for, without so much stress and soul searching and anguish, then you should probably consider finding another profession to practice, and reserve video/cinema as a hobby where you can make everything to your own exacting standards, and be happy with it purely on your own terms. Because if you are presently starting out, I suspect that you are staring years of work in the face, during which you will be expected to compromise your own standards, judgment, and vision on an hourly basis. By people who wouldn't know good taste, if it stabbed them in the eye with shrimp fork - and who wear more expensive suits, than you do.
I can offer an example from recent personal experience: last week I went to the screening of a feature that my cobbers and I worked on, for four months, out of state, in a third-tier city, in the cold, in the rain, in the snow, against difficult schedules and uncooperative locals*, into which we poured our creativity and energy and lots of long hours of work. Each of us, on our own ground, did some damned good and intricate and clever stuff. And, frankly, the end product was pretty weak and lame and lousy and I am not particularly proud to have my name attached to it. And you know what?
It Does Not Matter.
I got paid - handsomely. My crew got paid - handsomely, too. We all enjoyed each others' company and have worked together since and share smiles and shudders about the experience. Find the good in what went down, and think about *that.*
Hell, I bought my house with money earned on a show so awful that I am mildly embarassed to say I worked on it (and the number of shows of which you are really, truly proud, and I have quite a few, will always be smaller than the number of shows where, well, they paid you, and that's all there is to say about that).
Not trying to be a downer, just trying to encourage you to distance yourself emotionally and artistically from the distasteful aspect of the job, which is compromise.
Back me up, folks, or tell me why I'm wrong. Either way.
* uphill, both ways, in the dark, at the intersection of four map squares. And, there were wolves.
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David Jimerson said:
Yes, indeed, and if they can't distinguish crap from quality, than certainly they won't have a problem to replace you with someone worse, but that can really "put their shoes shinning". Get the money, do your own stuff separately. Gain experience. If you are talented, you'll do something good, be recognized, and then you can do wathever you want independently.
wabbit
Evil has Ears
Don't want to be just jumping on the bandwagon here but I figure it might help to hear this from as many people as possible.
It they are paying you, then they are the producers. And until you are the producer, you always conform to the producer's decision. You can use your wit and art of persuasion to push them in a better direction but at the end of the day it's their call. If you want to quit or permanently damage your job and reputations by refusing to bend or worse, make changes behind their backs (I have seen this done), then you will reap those consequences.
I use to work for Microsoft ALL THE TIME. These guys throw $50,000 at a 10 minute stupid little corporate video that maybe 500 of their employees would see for entertainment purposes. On almost all their projects I had some VP of such and such dept putting in the most inane stuff. It did not take me long to realize that these corporate videos are entirely about ego. They want face time, they want credit. If you know that going into a project then you can find ways to get a compromise by appealing to their ego. It doesn't make the projects great, but it gives you a degree of control that you are lacking.
Even if you move onto more creative endeavors like movies, you will find yourself working for others who sometimes are making OUTRAGEOUSLY bad decisions. Think of all the bad movies you have seen, and the 100 million you haven't seen. Realize there were plenty of people watching this train wrecks happen before their eyes. They knew they were making crap and I am sure they weren't thrilled about it but you only have as much control as your particular position allows you.
One day you will have the power and position to call the shots. Use what your are doing as a learning opportunity for that day. Until then realize how lucky you are for being paid to do what you love. Few in this world have that opportunity.
Good luck
It they are paying you, then they are the producers. And until you are the producer, you always conform to the producer's decision. You can use your wit and art of persuasion to push them in a better direction but at the end of the day it's their call. If you want to quit or permanently damage your job and reputations by refusing to bend or worse, make changes behind their backs (I have seen this done), then you will reap those consequences.
I use to work for Microsoft ALL THE TIME. These guys throw $50,000 at a 10 minute stupid little corporate video that maybe 500 of their employees would see for entertainment purposes. On almost all their projects I had some VP of such and such dept putting in the most inane stuff. It did not take me long to realize that these corporate videos are entirely about ego. They want face time, they want credit. If you know that going into a project then you can find ways to get a compromise by appealing to their ego. It doesn't make the projects great, but it gives you a degree of control that you are lacking.
Even if you move onto more creative endeavors like movies, you will find yourself working for others who sometimes are making OUTRAGEOUSLY bad decisions. Think of all the bad movies you have seen, and the 100 million you haven't seen. Realize there were plenty of people watching this train wrecks happen before their eyes. They knew they were making crap and I am sure they weren't thrilled about it but you only have as much control as your particular position allows you.
One day you will have the power and position to call the shots. Use what your are doing as a learning opportunity for that day. Until then realize how lucky you are for being paid to do what you love. Few in this world have that opportunity.
Good luck
HorseFilms
Look ma no hands
All that means to me is that you may get to charge him more for the extra time spent on the project.mrWr0ng said:
Rygh
Active member
The question really is, "It's my choice to work with or not to work with this company, what am I going to do?" It may be reality for some to work mundane jobs, get paid, and love it, or at least except it. Then there are people like you who can not in good conscience do this anymore, and it sounds like your conscience is telling you to leave regardless of the consequences. What a short life we live to just "make a living". The question really is, What are your goals, and are you on the right path to get there now? I had to make a hard decision to leave a very good paying job and security, because the owner was much like your's. I never looked back. That is not to say if you did the same, you will have the same outcome, it is just something you have to weigh out yourself.
Keep in mind. There are many people reading your post, who don't get paid and are willing to take your place in a second. So they will be bitter. But do it, it sounds like a cancer that is killing you. Either accept the situation, or move on.
Keep in mind. There are many people reading your post, who don't get paid and are willing to take your place in a second. So they will be bitter. But do it, it sounds like a cancer that is killing you. Either accept the situation, or move on.
anchoryanker
Well-known member
Barry_Green said:
I agree with Barry, although I definitely think he should try at least offer his advice to the clients. There's been a few projects I've worked on where the client's had a screwy vision of what they wanted and I had to indirectly steer them towards something better, and they thanked me when it was over with.
But if the clients insist that that is what they want, you have no choice but to give it to them.
Barry_Green
Moderator
I guess all I can say is "welcome to working for someone else."
And if they start making changes, you look at your hourly salary and decide if it's worth it. If it is, keep doing it. If it isn't, quit.
I got tired of dealing with clients and what they wanted, so I quit doing it.
There isn't much sadder than someone spending their days working at a job they hate. If you hate it, get out now, while you can, and find something that you love.
And if they start making changes, you look at your hourly salary and decide if it's worth it. If it is, keep doing it. If it isn't, quit.
I got tired of dealing with clients and what they wanted, so I quit doing it.
There isn't much sadder than someone spending their days working at a job they hate. If you hate it, get out now, while you can, and find something that you love.
mrWr0ng said:
If you're this pissed off over constant changes in corporate videos, then you'll really, really, REALLY hate working in film and advertising.
I think one of the biggest things people start learning once they're out of school is dealing with various personalities (Producers, Clients, Account Execs, etc). Like the folks mentioned above - you've basically got to learn how to massage ego's.
You'll be burnt out in 2 years if you get this worked up over every project that doesn't go your way. Learn how to "let it go" and move on to the next project.
You can quit and find a new production job for a different organization, but you'll start to realize that the stuff you're experiencing is happening everywhere.
I'd just keep saving the money you earn, work on personal projects during the weekends and nights, then quit when a better opportunity comes up. You're going to need your current employer as a reference so be sure to leave gracefully.
Capt Quirk
Veteran
The real world sucks. I strongly recommend NOT working for someone else, as they will do their best to crush your spirit, and stifle your artistic visions. However, if you aren't able to work for yourself, you are SOL. End of story.
I started off doing websites, and having a strong arts background, I was amazed at what people would ask for. I would of course start by giving them my vision- a beautifully crafted site. They would then look at it and say "Could you just...". I would make that change, and they would say "Could you just...". After a few extra hours or days of "Could you just...", I quit caring about "artistic integrity", and only saw the $15 an hour they were paying me to "just do this".
Of course, I'll never forget the night I was doing a Realtor's website. They even went out and spent a few hundred and bought the Dreamweaver Suite, just so that I could work in the discomfort of their office. They would say "Now, could you change this to this?" I would, and with every change, the wife would want me to print out the page. Of course, a website is wider than the paper, but she would insist on printing every change. That was the longest 6 hours of my life!
I started off doing websites, and having a strong arts background, I was amazed at what people would ask for. I would of course start by giving them my vision- a beautifully crafted site. They would then look at it and say "Could you just...". I would make that change, and they would say "Could you just...". After a few extra hours or days of "Could you just...", I quit caring about "artistic integrity", and only saw the $15 an hour they were paying me to "just do this".
Of course, I'll never forget the night I was doing a Realtor's website. They even went out and spent a few hundred and bought the Dreamweaver Suite, just so that I could work in the discomfort of their office. They would say "Now, could you change this to this?" I would, and with every change, the wife would want me to print out the page. Of course, a website is wider than the paper, but she would insist on printing every change. That was the longest 6 hours of my life!
There's a line from "City of Angels" (the musical, not the Nic Cage flick) which is somewhat applicable -- it refers to the movie business, but to writers. Same principle applies, though:
"Authors unprepared to take a stab at this collaborative art must suppress their egos and part with the notion that in motion pictures words are carved in marble."
In other words, it ain't all about you.
"Authors unprepared to take a stab at this collaborative art must suppress their egos and part with the notion that in motion pictures words are carved in marble."
In other words, it ain't all about you.
Okay, I'm jumping in.
As a guy who came up through IATSE in stage and film, I'll tell you that, to be happy and satisfied in your current situation, all you need to learn is the two words that will forever change your attitude toward your paid work and the "visionaries" who make the "creative" decisions driving it:
NECK DOWN.
Neck down. I know, it's sophomoric... a disdainful attitude for an artist to say this! It might seem impossible that you could adopt such a nonchalant attitude toward the creative process - ignoring every impulse in you to do it the right way - your way.
What about my fulfillment... my ART!? Bad news. In your current situation, your art might not matter. That's a hard, bitter, horse-pill sized thing to swallow, but it might well be true.
What to do?
Instead, you choose to focus on the craft. Improve your work. Find ways to become more efficient. Make them buy you a new software package and laptop so you can implement their vision after hours! Use the exercise to hone your communication skills. Find something, anything but your own niggling vision, to focus on as you learn to let go - to be truly... NECK DOWN.
You'll have to force it, but this perspective shift will benefit you in the end. Technically implement their vision in the best way you know how - get letters of endorsement by those who engaged you in their folly - and then let them live or die by their own sword.
Your current course of action brings two potential hazards:
e
As a guy who came up through IATSE in stage and film, I'll tell you that, to be happy and satisfied in your current situation, all you need to learn is the two words that will forever change your attitude toward your paid work and the "visionaries" who make the "creative" decisions driving it:
NECK DOWN.
Neck down. I know, it's sophomoric... a disdainful attitude for an artist to say this! It might seem impossible that you could adopt such a nonchalant attitude toward the creative process - ignoring every impulse in you to do it the right way - your way.
What about my fulfillment... my ART!? Bad news. In your current situation, your art might not matter. That's a hard, bitter, horse-pill sized thing to swallow, but it might well be true.
What to do?
Instead, you choose to focus on the craft. Improve your work. Find ways to become more efficient. Make them buy you a new software package and laptop so you can implement their vision after hours! Use the exercise to hone your communication skills. Find something, anything but your own niggling vision, to focus on as you learn to let go - to be truly... NECK DOWN.
You'll have to force it, but this perspective shift will benefit you in the end. Technically implement their vision in the best way you know how - get letters of endorsement by those who engaged you in their folly - and then let them live or die by their own sword.
Your current course of action brings two potential hazards:
- You are insubordinate, choosing to ignore your client's or employer's vision. They fire or demote you or otherwise diminish or revoke your ability to exercise your creativity.
- Your vision is adopted and, despite the fact that it borders on high art, a veritable master work of visual communication, falls miserably short of its intended purpose. Bad things happen at work - even your dog won't talk to you anymore for shame.
e
Zak Forsman
Major Contributor
As a producer and editor of DVD bonus features, my business partner and I have found that pleasing clients with a "lack of vision" is our bread and butter. But we take our $650/day preditor rates, two $1200/week bay rental rates, and our 40% profit margin from the $50,000 to $250,000 budgets and make our own, independently financed feature films.
Reflections of Lady in the Water paid for our last feature. Smokin' Aces, Lost: Season 3, and Pirates 3 will be paying for the next.
Reflections of Lady in the Water paid for our last feature. Smokin' Aces, Lost: Season 3, and Pirates 3 will be paying for the next.
Capt Quirk
Veteran
I think this is the best reply yet. Way to go Cygnet! I got to ask though... Pirates 3, is that the Pirates of the Caribbean, or the erotic Pirates?cygnet74 said:
Zak Forsman
Major Contributor
ha ha, sadly the former... World's End. producing the behind the scenes for a porno would be interesting though. anyway, what i described in he earlier post is how I turn what they want into what I want.Capt Quirk said:
Alex DePew
Señor Schmarty Pants
cygnet74 said:
And that's the way to do it. You make your client happy and you eventually get to a level of success where you can finance your own projects off of the ones you do for them.
You are confusing the art aspect of this with the business end. When you work for a client, you should feel the right to say 'something else would work better'. But when they say no, the business part is exerting itself and you should make them happy by doing whatever it is they want. No matter how much you disagree.
I hope to one day be working at a high level and producing my own films. But until then I will happily work on other projects that will range from terrible to good. I have been in the corporate world. And this is a whole lot more enjoyable.
Alex
Former Corporate Monkey