Let's solve this glitch once and for all
- Thread starter Barry_Green
- Start date
HI
I've had this issue once...
We shot 720p @ 24fps N onto 2 x 4 gig P2 cards. The clips were downloaded from the camera to an external Lacie d2 120 gig FW HD.
The clips were then imported into FCP V 5.02 with the FCP P2 utility using the external HD as the media drive. (running on a G5 1.8 gig single processor Power Mac)
The aberrations looked like analog dropouts though.... long horizontal lines of bad data always on non consecutive frames. However we found that if we imported the clips 2-3 at a time into FCP (instead of all at once) all was well.
Since upgrading to FCP 5.1.1 (OS 10.4.7) there have been no issues.
Today however the same set up suddenly produced an error -36 (can't read or write) and the OS refused to copy, P2 data directly from the camera, connected via FW directly. Usual trouble shooting didn't make a difference.
But I did have a newly upgraded Powerbook with OS 10.4.8 and FCP 5.1.2. I installed the PCMCIA card bus driver and copied the P2 data to the internal HD fine. Just to test I repeated the FW connection transfer and it was fine too.
All clips were perfect when imported into FCP.
Just muddies the water I'm afraid. My conclusion... the data on freshly formatted cards is usually OK. It's the transfer that can go pear shaped... check the good takes carefully!
Lee
I've had this issue once...
We shot 720p @ 24fps N onto 2 x 4 gig P2 cards. The clips were downloaded from the camera to an external Lacie d2 120 gig FW HD.
The clips were then imported into FCP V 5.02 with the FCP P2 utility using the external HD as the media drive. (running on a G5 1.8 gig single processor Power Mac)
The aberrations looked like analog dropouts though.... long horizontal lines of bad data always on non consecutive frames. However we found that if we imported the clips 2-3 at a time into FCP (instead of all at once) all was well.
Since upgrading to FCP 5.1.1 (OS 10.4.7) there have been no issues.
Today however the same set up suddenly produced an error -36 (can't read or write) and the OS refused to copy, P2 data directly from the camera, connected via FW directly. Usual trouble shooting didn't make a difference.
But I did have a newly upgraded Powerbook with OS 10.4.8 and FCP 5.1.2. I installed the PCMCIA card bus driver and copied the P2 data to the internal HD fine. Just to test I repeated the FW connection transfer and it was fine too.
All clips were perfect when imported into FCP.
Just muddies the water I'm afraid. My conclusion... the data on freshly formatted cards is usually OK. It's the transfer that can go pear shaped... check the good takes carefully!
Lee
Camdude
Member
I had these kind of dropouts before when importing using my PC laptop.
This actually hapenned to me on my first ever P2 shoot/job and it scared the hell out of me!
On my Backup hard disk all the clips were fine, but on my Main hard disk the dropouts were there on the end of every single clip! Lucky I had backup:thumbup:. My laptop had 512mb of ram, which was the minimum requirements for importing P2 and my graphics card was 128mb "SHARED". (It only happened on full P2 cards). I eventually figured out that the problem might have been the "SHARED" graphics card pulling 128mb from my 512mb ram.
So I added 1 gig of ram to my laptop and walla! No problems anymore.
I havent had any issues like this working with my MAC (2gig ram).
Could it be a Mac RAM issue working with large files like my PC had??
This actually hapenned to me on my first ever P2 shoot/job and it scared the hell out of me!
On my Backup hard disk all the clips were fine, but on my Main hard disk the dropouts were there on the end of every single clip! Lucky I had backup:thumbup:. My laptop had 512mb of ram, which was the minimum requirements for importing P2 and my graphics card was 128mb "SHARED". (It only happened on full P2 cards). I eventually figured out that the problem might have been the "SHARED" graphics card pulling 128mb from my 512mb ram.
So I added 1 gig of ram to my laptop and walla! No problems anymore.
I havent had any issues like this working with my MAC (2gig ram).
Could it be a Mac RAM issue working with large files like my PC had??
ksteiger
Well-known member
First glitch
First glitch
I was recently shooting some nature shots (The ocean at Leo Carillo Beach in Malibu) and experienced my firts P2/FCP glitch. It appears as 1 frame of spurious "dots" evenly distributed through the frame. I have not tried re-importing yet, but I will try that this evening.
I am still on 5.0.4 (Haven't had the time to exchange the discs with Apple for the upgrade) The only thing I did differently this time was that I used a bus powered USB 2.0 Seagate 120 gig drive to copy the P2 footage onto in the field. (Through my 17" G4 powerbook) I then imported from the Seagate drive to my FW 800 external HD at home. Perhaps the laptop is having problems keeping up with all this bus activity, I dunno...Maybe I should create a folder on The FW 800 drive and copy over to it first before importing into the project???
This is the first P2 problem I have had with importing to QT with FCP.
I did have a another curious problem about three months ago. I was getting skipped frames right before a dissolve on the timeline. If I exported to QT and played THAT back the skipped frame was not present. When I went back to the original project file and played it out of FCP, it was there again. Rendering did nothing. I finished the project because all of my exports were fine!! Two weeks ago I went back and checked the original project again in FCP and it played fine...?!!@#!?
I am using a quad core G5 with 4 gigs of ram.
I am taking my HVX out to dinner and a show tonight...she DESERVES it!
rogar-Smoke(DBG): rogar-Love(DBG):
First glitch
I was recently shooting some nature shots (The ocean at Leo Carillo Beach in Malibu) and experienced my firts P2/FCP glitch. It appears as 1 frame of spurious "dots" evenly distributed through the frame. I have not tried re-importing yet, but I will try that this evening.
I am still on 5.0.4 (Haven't had the time to exchange the discs with Apple for the upgrade) The only thing I did differently this time was that I used a bus powered USB 2.0 Seagate 120 gig drive to copy the P2 footage onto in the field. (Through my 17" G4 powerbook) I then imported from the Seagate drive to my FW 800 external HD at home. Perhaps the laptop is having problems keeping up with all this bus activity, I dunno...Maybe I should create a folder on The FW 800 drive and copy over to it first before importing into the project???
This is the first P2 problem I have had with importing to QT with FCP.
I did have a another curious problem about three months ago. I was getting skipped frames right before a dissolve on the timeline. If I exported to QT and played THAT back the skipped frame was not present. When I went back to the original project file and played it out of FCP, it was there again. Rendering did nothing. I finished the project because all of my exports were fine!! Two weeks ago I went back and checked the original project again in FCP and it played fine...?!!@#!?
I am using a quad core G5 with 4 gigs of ram.
I am taking my HVX out to dinner and a show tonight...she DESERVES it!
rogar-Smoke(DBG): rogar-Love(DBG):Jay Stebbins
Active member
Where does this issue stand? How widespread is this. As I am about to purchace an HVX-200 and I am a Mac user.
If not solved... Has anyone checked the permissions through the osx disk utility? As anytime I have had unexplained behavior on any of my Macs that always seemed to fix the issue.
Thanks,
Jay
If not solved... Has anyone checked the permissions through the osx disk utility? As anytime I have had unexplained behavior on any of my Macs that always seemed to fix the issue.
Thanks,
Jay
bbalser
Veteran
It seems to be a problem with Apple's P2 driver. Fixing permissions has no effect on this issue. Not all Mac users experience it, and those of us who do, do not experience it on any sort of consistant basis. It comes and goes. Hopefully, since Apple just bought out what's that company's name who does MXF development, we'll see native MXF support in version 6 of FCP. Looking forward to NAB!
I use the FS-100 with FCP and my HVX on a weekly basis (I have also already posted questions on this above.)
Most importantly, I have been dropout free for over a week. Here's what I've done to troubleshoot it:
1) Made sure I was running the latest FCP (5.1.2).
2) Made sure I was using a high quality FW cable, no longer than 6ft, to connect the FS-100 to my G5.
3) Made sure I had ample free HD space to copy the Footage to (i.e. 20% of the HD capacity at least.)
4) **** MADE SURE NO OTHER FIREWIRE DEVICES WERE ATTACHED TO THE G5 WHEN IMPORTING OR COPYING OVER THE FOOTAGE ****** This made a huge difference, I believe. And I do not recommend copying or importing P2 Drives (FS100 or P2 Cards) through your Mac into another Firewire device. Copy it (preferably using Disk Utility to create a .dmg) to your built-in HD, or to a RAID that is fiber-optic. I sincerely believe that the Firewire bus can't handle two connections fast enough for the HD footage to copy properly.
5) Given that the dropouts appear to be symptomatic of some sort of bus-speed slow-down, I recommend not doing anything on your Mac while the footage is copying or importing. SD DV footage is probably fine, but the HD footage is too sensitive.
As these bb's go, I'm sure someone will come along and correct me on something in here. But I'm telling you, I use this sh*t all the time, and this is what definitively worked for me. No more dropouts -- after having them occasionally if not frequently before.
Hope that helps. Good luck, Jay.
Most importantly, I have been dropout free for over a week. Here's what I've done to troubleshoot it:
1) Made sure I was running the latest FCP (5.1.2).
2) Made sure I was using a high quality FW cable, no longer than 6ft, to connect the FS-100 to my G5.
3) Made sure I had ample free HD space to copy the Footage to (i.e. 20% of the HD capacity at least.)
4) **** MADE SURE NO OTHER FIREWIRE DEVICES WERE ATTACHED TO THE G5 WHEN IMPORTING OR COPYING OVER THE FOOTAGE ****** This made a huge difference, I believe. And I do not recommend copying or importing P2 Drives (FS100 or P2 Cards) through your Mac into another Firewire device. Copy it (preferably using Disk Utility to create a .dmg) to your built-in HD, or to a RAID that is fiber-optic. I sincerely believe that the Firewire bus can't handle two connections fast enough for the HD footage to copy properly.
5) Given that the dropouts appear to be symptomatic of some sort of bus-speed slow-down, I recommend not doing anything on your Mac while the footage is copying or importing. SD DV footage is probably fine, but the HD footage is too sensitive.
As these bb's go, I'm sure someone will come along and correct me on something in here. But I'm telling you, I use this sh*t all the time, and this is what definitively worked for me. No more dropouts -- after having them occasionally if not frequently before.
Hope that helps. Good luck, Jay.
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bbalser
Veteran
Firewire "speed" mechanically has no bearing on "how" data is copied. I copy to an external FW drive and an internal drive, no differeneces for me. Yes, all hard drives must have a minimum of 10-15% of it's capacity free for OS and app temp files, reguardless of OS.
But based on other's experiences, and my own, I don't see Firewire buss speed as having any bearing on this glitch. In gathering all the info I can, and I believe Barry is on the same page with me, we are pretty convinced it is the Apple P2 driver. The OS just glitches P2 data randomly, period.
Hopefully, Apple is aware of this and is working on it. I am encouraging everyone to fill out the FCP feedback page and let Apple know you have, or had, problems.
As for making a disk image with Disk Utility, there are known problems with that. The .dmg creation introduces more variables to become corrupted. I know at one time Apple claimed this was the best practice, but based on reports here at DVXuser.com, it's really a BAD idea and has no mechnisms to ensure proper data copy at all.
Yeah, I use this stuff every single day. I've been tracking all the complaints here an on other boards for a good while now. I'm in communication with Focus and a couple of other Apple trainers about it. It's Apple's OS, how it handles P2 data, I'm 99% sure of it.
Not every Mac users experiences this, and it's not on every import. Sometimes P2 Log or P2 Genie can import the problem clips, sometimes not, sometimes they have problems on different clips than FCP does.
Hopfully Apple is getting the message there's a major bug and will fix it very soon. Especially seeing as how the majority of HVX200 and FS100 users are Mac editors.
But based on other's experiences, and my own, I don't see Firewire buss speed as having any bearing on this glitch. In gathering all the info I can, and I believe Barry is on the same page with me, we are pretty convinced it is the Apple P2 driver. The OS just glitches P2 data randomly, period.
Hopefully, Apple is aware of this and is working on it. I am encouraging everyone to fill out the FCP feedback page and let Apple know you have, or had, problems.
As for making a disk image with Disk Utility, there are known problems with that. The .dmg creation introduces more variables to become corrupted. I know at one time Apple claimed this was the best practice, but based on reports here at DVXuser.com, it's really a BAD idea and has no mechnisms to ensure proper data copy at all.
Yeah, I use this stuff every single day. I've been tracking all the complaints here an on other boards for a good while now. I'm in communication with Focus and a couple of other Apple trainers about it. It's Apple's OS, how it handles P2 data, I'm 99% sure of it.
Not every Mac users experiences this, and it's not on every import. Sometimes P2 Log or P2 Genie can import the problem clips, sometimes not, sometimes they have problems on different clips than FCP does.
Hopfully Apple is getting the message there's a major bug and will fix it very soon. Especially seeing as how the majority of HVX200 and FS100 users are Mac editors.
berserkerfilms
New member
problems with video folder not showing up
problems with video folder not showing up
i've been experiencing some discouraging glitches lately with using the p2store and our brand new 2.33 ghz intelcore duo 2 macbook pro... first off, we are shooting on an hvx 200 and using p2 genie to copy HD footage into our firmtek harddrive...with the usb 2.0 cable connected to the p2store and running into the firmtek harddrive connected to the computer (via an expresscard slot), we load p2 genie and thats where the problems start happening...
for instance, we had 15 cards (4 gig p2 cards) maxed out on the p2store and decided to dump to the drive... so we load p2 genie and for some reason, 1 or 2 of the folders did not contain video...there was audio copied in but no video! the 6 typical folders that you see when "NO NAME" mounts on your desktop are: AUDIO, CLIP, ICON, PROXY, VIDEO and VOICE. yet, no folder for VIDEO was created for one of these NO NAME folders!
so after using p2 genie, we load the latest version of final cut pro and go to "import P2"...we drag some of the copied folders (from the p2 genie) into FCP and then get "-36 errors" saying the data was unreadable...and yet, some of the folders were just fine (containing video and audio and were playable in the preview window)...i even tried to manually drag the MXF video clips that we saw on the mounted folders on the desktop into the harddrive too...apparently, the video folder appears when it mounts on the desktop, but when we use p2 genie to transfer over to the harddrive, we lose the video.
furthermore, on 1 particular day of shooting last week, we didnt have time to verify/watch the footage that we dumped into a lacie harddrive (while we are in the field), so we went ahead and formatted the p2store without actually seeing what we got earlier that day..later that evening, we discovered that 2/3 of the stuff we copied to the lacie disk contained no video! it was hit and miss...some folders had video and some did not! we suspect it could have been the fact that the computer was running on very low battery and the display was going to sleep every few minutes (we barely got it dumped to the lacie in time before the computer went dead).
finally, we used the old backup computer (powerbook titanium g4) to try doing the same thing and again no video was copied..even more, when sticking a p2 card into that computer, it freezes it up entirely (forcing us to have to eject the card to un-freeze it).
so we suspect that its: 1) the usb 2.0 cables, 2) the p2 driver , 3) p2 genie software, 4) the mac os system or 5) the p2 cards themselves. i've read that its most likely the p2 driver for the mac that is causing these glitches but our situation is very discouraging. we are making a documentary in israel and have been here for a month now and finding decent video stores and assistance is not within immediate reach...if we dont find what the problem is soon, we will continue losing valuable video footage every day!
if anyone can please respond with any theories/ideas on whats happening here (on why some video doesn't transfer over) , we would be very grateful.
jonathan
berserker films llc.
problems with video folder not showing up
i've been experiencing some discouraging glitches lately with using the p2store and our brand new 2.33 ghz intelcore duo 2 macbook pro... first off, we are shooting on an hvx 200 and using p2 genie to copy HD footage into our firmtek harddrive...with the usb 2.0 cable connected to the p2store and running into the firmtek harddrive connected to the computer (via an expresscard slot), we load p2 genie and thats where the problems start happening...
for instance, we had 15 cards (4 gig p2 cards) maxed out on the p2store and decided to dump to the drive... so we load p2 genie and for some reason, 1 or 2 of the folders did not contain video...there was audio copied in but no video! the 6 typical folders that you see when "NO NAME" mounts on your desktop are: AUDIO, CLIP, ICON, PROXY, VIDEO and VOICE. yet, no folder for VIDEO was created for one of these NO NAME folders!
so after using p2 genie, we load the latest version of final cut pro and go to "import P2"...we drag some of the copied folders (from the p2 genie) into FCP and then get "-36 errors" saying the data was unreadable...and yet, some of the folders were just fine (containing video and audio and were playable in the preview window)...i even tried to manually drag the MXF video clips that we saw on the mounted folders on the desktop into the harddrive too...apparently, the video folder appears when it mounts on the desktop, but when we use p2 genie to transfer over to the harddrive, we lose the video.
furthermore, on 1 particular day of shooting last week, we didnt have time to verify/watch the footage that we dumped into a lacie harddrive (while we are in the field), so we went ahead and formatted the p2store without actually seeing what we got earlier that day..later that evening, we discovered that 2/3 of the stuff we copied to the lacie disk contained no video! it was hit and miss...some folders had video and some did not! we suspect it could have been the fact that the computer was running on very low battery and the display was going to sleep every few minutes (we barely got it dumped to the lacie in time before the computer went dead).
finally, we used the old backup computer (powerbook titanium g4) to try doing the same thing and again no video was copied..even more, when sticking a p2 card into that computer, it freezes it up entirely (forcing us to have to eject the card to un-freeze it).
so we suspect that its: 1) the usb 2.0 cables, 2) the p2 driver , 3) p2 genie software, 4) the mac os system or 5) the p2 cards themselves. i've read that its most likely the p2 driver for the mac that is causing these glitches but our situation is very discouraging. we are making a documentary in israel and have been here for a month now and finding decent video stores and assistance is not within immediate reach...if we dont find what the problem is soon, we will continue losing valuable video footage every day!
if anyone can please respond with any theories/ideas on whats happening here (on why some video doesn't transfer over) , we would be very grateful.
jonathan
berserker films llc.
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Barry_Green
Moderator
Just get a PC laptop to offload your footage and all (and I do mean *all*) your problems will go away. It is going to be the best $500 you ever spent.
I am guessing the problem lies either with Apple's P2 driver or with FCP 5.1.2. As I indicated on one of the multiple threads going around here, files which would not import under 5.1.2 worked perfectly under 5.1.1.
Now, having said that, if I had a spare $1K sitting around, I would buy Edius 4 Broadcast for MacBook Pro and run it under Boot Camp until the Apple/FCP issues are resolved.
While another poster attributed problems to a hardware issue with his HVX, I doubt that at least my issues are that basic. If the files work in one version of the software and refuse to import in another, I am guessing the problem lies in the software.
Ned Soltz
Now, having said that, if I had a spare $1K sitting around, I would buy Edius 4 Broadcast for MacBook Pro and run it under Boot Camp until the Apple/FCP issues are resolved.
While another poster attributed problems to a hardware issue with his HVX, I doubt that at least my issues are that basic. If the files work in one version of the software and refuse to import in another, I am guessing the problem lies in the software.
Ned Soltz
Barry_Green
Moderator
I am certain that it's not FCP's fault. I am 100% certain that the bug exists outside of FCP, for two main reasons:
1) I've transferred hundreds of cards on a PC and imported into FCP and never had a glitch
2) We've seen evidence of the glitch in P2 Log, where the card has never even been transferred, and never been near FCP. Just the act of reading the footage from the card can introduce the glitch; therefore it's not FCP's fault.
I am certain that Apple has some buggy P2 import drivers. That's where the bug is. Panasonic doesn't write Mac software, as near as I can tell. I believe it is Apple who wrote the drivers, and therefore all fingers point to them. Which is good, actually, because the first step in fixing a bug is narrowing down a) where it happens, and then b) finding the responsible party.
I am now certain that the bug is contained in the drivers that get loaded from the CD. And that Apple wrote them. And that Apple is responsible for fixing them. So now let's ask Apple to fix 'em.
1) I've transferred hundreds of cards on a PC and imported into FCP and never had a glitch
2) We've seen evidence of the glitch in P2 Log, where the card has never even been transferred, and never been near FCP. Just the act of reading the footage from the card can introduce the glitch; therefore it's not FCP's fault.
I am certain that Apple has some buggy P2 import drivers. That's where the bug is. Panasonic doesn't write Mac software, as near as I can tell. I believe it is Apple who wrote the drivers, and therefore all fingers point to them. Which is good, actually, because the first step in fixing a bug is narrowing down a) where it happens, and then b) finding the responsible party.
I am now certain that the bug is contained in the drivers that get loaded from the CD. And that Apple wrote them. And that Apple is responsible for fixing them. So now let's ask Apple to fix 'em.
Segarza
Well-known member
Ok so it's definitely Apple.
When you've seen evidence of the glitch in P2 Log by reading directly from the P2 card, is it some kind of read error? or are the cards contents actually modified and the glitch is permanently introduced?
And does anyone know if Apple is actually working on the fix? Do we wait for it, or do we have to get them to acknowledge there actually is a bug?
When you've seen evidence of the glitch in P2 Log by reading directly from the P2 card, is it some kind of read error? or are the cards contents actually modified and the glitch is permanently introduced?
And does anyone know if Apple is actually working on the fix? Do we wait for it, or do we have to get them to acknowledge there actually is a bug?
Barry_Green
Moderator
No, it's specifically and only a read error. The cards are bulletproof.
Kevin Railsback is my source for the P2 Log thing, look for his posts earlier in this thread.
The glitch seems to be a randomly-introduced read error, and if you get hit with it you can re-import your footage and it'll work properly the second time around.
As far as I know, Apple has never said word one about the bug, they haven't acknowledged it, they haven't taken responsibility for it, and they haven't announced any timetable for a fix or that they're even working on a fix. I believe they could use some "encouragement" to get working on it.
Kevin Railsback is my source for the P2 Log thing, look for his posts earlier in this thread.
The glitch seems to be a randomly-introduced read error, and if you get hit with it you can re-import your footage and it'll work properly the second time around.
As far as I know, Apple has never said word one about the bug, they haven't acknowledged it, they haven't taken responsibility for it, and they haven't announced any timetable for a fix or that they're even working on a fix. I believe they could use some "encouragement" to get working on it.