I bought this camera so that _I_ could work

M

mrWr0ng

Well-known member
Seems to be the case now that I'm getting calls for my camera, but they're not willing to let me actually *operate* the thing. I got a request to come out and work on a music video, so I did, then the DP insisted on lighting, framing and being camera op. I reluctantly agreed and AC'd, since it's a local crew, and they're getting more work so it might be more worthwhile as far as networking goes.

Now I'm getting a call from a lady whose other DP dropped out on her, she just picked up a new one, and he wants to light, DP and do camera op as well. At this point, I'm just telling her no, I don't need to DP it, I don't need to light, I'm green so I don't mind working for someone else to get experience, but I'm not going to keep showing up so someone else can use my camera - otherwise I'll just spend my life renting it out to everyone.

I'm trying not to get my ego involved here, but I'm definitely not going to rent the camera out to everybody and not get any worthwhile experience out of it.

Has anyone else had this problem? The lady I was talking today said her DP is interning for some famous Hollywood duder, but it seems to me that if he were that serious about being professional, then he wouldn't need to claim all the work and would just focus on lighting, angles and composition.
 
While I can understand your frustration, as long as you are getting the rate you are asking, I'd take the job, watch very closely why these people are being asked to run the camera and make yourself THAT good.
Besides, the more gigs you go out on the more exposure you get. Networking is key to long term survival in this business.
I wish you luck!
 
People just don't trust people right away, you need to earn their trust, pay dues and so on... so you are looking up at active bureaucracy to get out, I hate it. If you won't settle you'll be naturally good at it... you'll find a way to change it. Show them that you are more than an AC and that taking a step back has a price, and make them pay for it in some way. That could be more dow or commitment to a schedule of increasing responsibilities and duties. Then provide exelent work so she doesn't later find someone willing to just rent.

TedRR said:
While I can understand your frustration, as long as you are getting the rate you are asking, I'd take the job, watch very closely why these people are being asked to run the camera and make yourself THAT good.
Besides, the more gigs you go out on the more exposure you get. Networking is key to long term survival in this business.
I wish you luck!
Click to expand...

True that!
 
I'm curious if you know the exact responsibilites of the DP?

Because from your post, which is full of small contradictions, it doesn't seem that you do know the exact criteria. Its not a bad thing, I'm not coming down on you, but its something to figure to help you understand your situation better.

So, what exactly are you wanting to acheive when you bring yourself onto a show with your camera? Because everything you are describing is pretty much a DP does to include operating the camera (a personal choice of the DP whether he wants to or not.)
 
If that's what the client wants, I'd let them do whatever they want for now. Meanwhile, it pays the bills, and you are bound to learn something by just showing up and being the AC, even if you only learn from their mistakes.
 
Watch and learn, add experiences to your knowledge and you'll be going in the right way. One day you'll be using other cameras and crews, you'll be the responsible for the final image. Don't take such responsibility for the camera rent value, you'll be asked for the result later on.

I watched and helped many productions before being a director.

Ulisses.
 
I'm curious what a rental rate for this type of situation would be, ie., not experienced as a DP, but willing to AC or just be there as you rent out your HVX200. Roughly. Ballpark. I know a DP's rate would depend on experience, but what about just the gear.
 
I agree, stick with it I would for the experience....hell, bring another small dv cam and tape them working and document it for yourself and incase they drop your camera you can sue'em!.....just kidding.
 
Getting hired as an owner / AC isn't a bad thing if they are paying your day rate. Don't expect that just because you own a camera that everyone will want you to DP a project. Do you have a strong reel? Do you have good industry references? A 1st AC isn't a bad credit at all, I would suggest taking it.

Even if you do get hired as an owner / operator, don't be too surprised if the DP wants to op on some scenes.

As others have pointed out, the contacts you make from working a job may end up being much more important than the income from the job.
 
mrWr0ng said:
I'm trying not to get my ego involved here, but I'm definitely not going to rent the camera out to everybody and not get any worthwhile experience out of it.
Click to expand...

This sounds to me like it is totally ego driven. If you consider being a first AC for a DP with far more experience than you to be void of any worthwhile experience, then you will never learn a thing, as it appears you are closed off to the idea.

mrWr0ng said:
Has anyone else had this problem? The lady I was talking today said her DP is interning for some famous Hollywood duder, but it seems to me that if he were that serious about being professional, then he wouldn't need to claim all the work and would just focus on lighting, angles and composition.
Click to expand...

If you were serious about being professional you would take a back seat and jump at the opportunity to learn from someone else's experience. Besides as has been pointed out many DP's operate camera. After all it is part of the job description.
 
If it's experience and education you want, you learn at least 10x as much shooting your own projects than you would shooting someone else's.

What's stopping you?
 
For this job in particular, there is no pay. I originally responded to the ad looking to get anything from DP to Camera Op to A/C. The DP she originally hired had his own HVX. Then that DP bailed, she picked another DP who didn't have an HVX, then she wanted to let him use mine while I get at best an A/C credit on a less than 10 minute short with no name power attached to it.

The question is more long term - what am I going to learn from doing this? I've A/C'ed on lots of gigs, but when it comes to demo reels and putting my stuff out there (and I work on plenty of my own stuff), it's worth nothing - not because there is nothing for me to learn (there is), but because when it comes to contacting others to try to get work, saying "Yeah, I A/C'ed on this gig" is not going to be worth anything. There is nothing in the video that will show what _I_ can do, other than having another project under my belt. I might as well PA on a gig for all that's worth.

ozduc said:
This sounds to me like it is totally ego driven. If you consider being a first AC for a DP with far more experience than you to be void of any worthwhile experience, then you will never learn a thing, as it appears you are closed off to the idea.
Click to expand...

I'm not. But I am not particularly open to the idea of showing up with thousands of dollars of my own equipment so that someone else can do all the work and I get nothing from it. I am not adverse to someone else DP'ing, lighting, setting frame, because there is lots I can learn from it, but let me actually operate the camera (ie press the button, physically move the camera), and we both benefit - the DP gets all the DP credit, lighting, etc, and I take a camera op credit that's worth something on my resume. We both benefit. In this scenario, I gain nothing, but put my own gear and time on the line. What is the point of me investing in my own equipment to gain nothing from working on other people's productions? Yeah, I can see how another DP does it, and there is always something to gain from that - but if it does nothing for me getting out of an A/C position, then what is it going to be for my career?
 
Just shoot some short films for yourself. If you can't write, find someone who does to write you a script. Find a group of people and convince them to help you on your project. That way, you'll improve and learn from your mistakes. Just don't expect to make much money in the beginning.

You can also do some fake adverts to test your skills. You can always add them to your portfolio. While you don't get immediate economical benefits, your skill and experience will improve, and you have something to show your clients.
 
Yeah. If you are working for free and supplying the gear, then I would try to get a cam op or DP gig out of it.

But, if you can't, I second what ProjX said. Do your own projects! If you got the gear, then YOU get people around you and have them help you do your own thing. OR, if you have no good ideas of your own, hook up with a wanna be director/writer etc.. and make stuff. You'll learn, have fun, and you can credit yourself with whatever you want. :beer:
 
Oh that's no concern. I've won a few awards for my screenwriting, and written/directed a couple projects that won awards as well. I'm starting my own production company, and I've been freelancing and contracted to shoot and do promotional videos for nonprofits in the bay area, including the Red Cross, the World Affairs Council and the Global Philanthropy Forum.

I'm writing, directing, editing, scoring and shooting a lot of projects, but I'm also looking to get involved in other people's projects so that I can learn how others do it as well - in that respect, I am willing to work for free on other people's projects, or supply my own gear at a vastly reduced rate in exchange for the opportunity to network and learn from others. I've learned a lot and I want to learn more, but I'm not going to be a sucker, show up and let other people use my gear for nothing while I get a credit that isn't worth anything for my reel.
 
Dude, NEEEEEEVER rent your cam out for free to anyone from the outside. A close friend borrowing it is one thing, but noone should get a camera for free, you had to pay for that camera. They may not need pay you for operating it, but just lending the cam to everyone is ****ed up, and it also hurts the market for those of us trying to hire out our gear.
 
Well now this is a different story than your first post in which you indicated that you were renting your camera out. That implies a rental fee is involved. However if you are willing to give your equipment away on a daily basis then don't expect to gain any respect from the people you are letting take advantage of you and your gear.
I bet this woman got your number from the first crew you gave your camera to.
 
I agree with fleaquit. If it's someone elses project with little or no budget, its cool to help them out, but you should still get some $ for your gear and time. Corporate gigs are one thing...there is money...personal projects are another, but you still have to be compensated to some degree. Thats only fair.
 
What they said... If they are not paying a rental and your not getting experience that is useful for you, then it's a bad idea. It sounds like they may be using you for your FREE camera. Also, If they are as big-timey Hollywood as they are implying, they can afford a rental.
 
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