Let's solve this glitch once and for all

B

Barry_Green

Moderator
UPDATE: The Glitch may be related to putting P2 Cards in without using the write-protect tab. If you always always always always always write-protect your cards, and still get "the glitch", then please write in and let us know. If you get the glitch, and you don't write-protect your cards, let us know. If you use the P2 Store to import your cards and you never get the glitch, we don't need to hear from you -- the P2 Store acts as an automatic "write protect" device. If you use the P2 Store to import cards and you DO get the glitch, please let us know.


I'm asking for the community's help. If you use an HVX and you use a Mac, please read this thread and help us solve this problem once and for all.

I don't know about you, but I've had about enough of reading from people about "why is my footage trashed" or "why doesn't my P2 volume mount" or "why is my clip corrupted" or "why won't my clip import"... let's get some concrete solutions for these people.

And the first step is to identify the problem. Identify exactly what situation it is that causes these glitches, and then hold the responsible party's feet to the fire until they FIX IT.

For those who don't know what I'm talking about: there is an issues where occasionally when someone imports a clip on a Mac, they get a glitched frame or two. It looks like a DV tape dropout. This is an extreme example:
HVXDrops.jpg


Other examples show just one or two little blocks of corruption. But as far as I'm concerned, *any* corruption is completely unacceptable.

And this is not an isolated case. I took a quick scan through just the first part of our Technical forum and came up with several threads griping about the same issue:
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=60516
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=73623
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=62737
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=69091
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=65405
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=61374

LET'S GET TO THE BOTTOM OF THIS.

I'd like to hear from those of you who've had this problem, as to what it was that you did when the problem occurred.

IF YOU'VE NEVER HAD THIS PROBLEM, PLEASE DON'T RESPOND HERE.

Posts that say "never happened to me" don't help us at all. We have thousands of HVX users here, and have the ability to test the system in far more ways than Apple could, so let's help them by figuring out the exact circumstances and then telling them. And then it'll get fixed.

From my research, we can rule out FCP entirely. I believe FCP is innocent. I believe instead that it's related to either the particular chain of hardware used, or perhaps conflicts from some terminate-and-stay-resident software.

So for those of you who've had it happen: what was your workflow? Specifically:
1) Did you try to import footage directly from the card slot of a Powerbook G4 straight into FCP?

2) Did you try to copy footage directly from the card slot of a Powerbook G4 onto a hard disk, and then import from there?

3) Did you try to copy footage (or import footage, either way) using the camera as a card reader, hooked up via 1394 Device mode?

4) Did you try to copy footage (or import footage, either way) using the camera as a card reader, hooked up via USB Device mode?

5) Did you try to copy footage (or import footage, either way) using the external five-slot card reader?

And, do you use any external firewire hubs to connect hard disks, or daisy-chain the camera through a hub (or through an external hard disk) or anything like that?

An interesting post from Kevin Railsback points me towards my conclusion that it is almost unquestionably a problem with the PCMCIA driver:
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=653842&postcount=9

In this case there is no firewire involved, no firewire hub, no daisy-chaining, no FCP, no "disk image", no anything. Not even a transfer to disk! Just a card stuck in a Powerbook slot. And the glitched frames happened (and later corrected themselves). But I reserve indicting the driver until we find out whether Kevin was running some TSR programs or something that could have complicated the matter.

Let me take a moment to say that there are thousands of very happy, productive, satisfied HVX/Mac owners. The overwhelmingly vast majority of users do not appear to have this problem! We know that, and are happy for them. But some are being affected by this issue and I believe it's time that it gets fixed. Or, if it's user error in any way (such as connecting your drives through a hub) let's definitively find that out, so we can give them proper advice to eliminate the issue from ever affecting them again. Any valid scientific "debugging" advice that you, the masses, can provide will be forwarded to the appropriate people to assist them in finding and fixing any potential issues.

Here's an example of what I'm talking about: if you've had the issue before, let's try to re-create it. If it happens when directly copying on your G4, then could you take an hour (maybe while watching "Deal or No Deal") ;) and just repetitively copy a card over to an external hard disk about 20 times or so. Then use a binary file compare utility to compare all the files against the files on the card, to check for any corruption whatsoever. Doing something like this would be very helpful for finding if any corruption has occurred, and would probably be far more reliable a way of testing than it would be to just look at footage for glitches.

Thanks all!
 
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Barry,
I still get those glitches. Just when I think my files have the glitches, I replay them and they are fine. It seems to happen if I try looking at the files as soon as the card mounts.

It seems if I let the card sit for a bit, then I don't see the glitches at all.

It's happened as recently as my Hawaii footage.
I normally just use the G4 Powerbook to backup so no external drives are attached.

I'll see if I can play around with it some more and get more info.

Then of course no matter what I do, I can only load about three P2 cards before it fails to mount and the only way to mount additional P2 cards is to reboot.
 
Barry Can i suggest also that whoever posts here and has had the problem tell us exactly what hardware and software they are using & might have running in the background.

There is a related problem with people having sync displaced about 8 frames when using "Capture Now" on their powerbooks, but lets stick with one at a time.
 
P2 Glitch

P2 Glitch

This happened to me last weekend when I was trying to finish up a VERY important video. During the last interview (from a clean 8GB card) I get a drop out. I did not touch the camera at all during the interview, so I don't think it's the card.

I hooked my HVX to my MBP and transfered the contents to my HD. Then I opened FCP 5.1.2 and tried to "Import P2." All of my imports worked flawlessly but this last one.

I put the clip in the FCP timeline and when it got the the "drop out" gray boxes showed up and then the audio sped up! I went back and re-imported the clip and noticed it was doing this in the "import P2" view window. I recaptured before and after the glitch with the same results. Then, on the next capture, viola! it worked. I can't say why it worked the last time, as I did nothing different.

I'm glad this was clip was saved. I've gone back and imported the clip again and the glitch isn't there. Hum...
 
Interesting. Kevin has it with using the card itself, and somewhat repeatable.

James got it using the camera as a card reader.

Kevin, how often do you get it to happen? Can you try terminating every additional program you have running (virus checkers or anything like that) and see if it quits happening? I think yours is the most promising test case because there's the least amount of hardware involved (no firewire cables, no external drives, etc).
 
I'll shoot some stuff today and try duplicating it with nothing else running.
BTW, I'm on a 17" 1.67Ghz G4 Powerbook with OS 10.4.8.
I've had the problems with previous versions ie 10.4.7 etc.
 
Weak links, methinks.

Weak links, methinks.

Ok. I've had the same dropout problems, and I use the FS-100 drive, not the P2's. The problem has occurred in DVCPro HD 720p/24p, and DVCPro50 SD. I am using a dual 2.5 GHz Power Mac and a 3.5 TB RAID 5 XServe to digitize to.

Recently, the dropouts got worse for me. Two things have helped so far:

1) Using Import P2 to ingest the footage DIRECTLY to the computer's Internal HD (this means setting it as the primary Scratch, Render, Thumbnail, and Autosave disk in preferences).

2) Using a higher quality FireWire cable. Yes, it's true. The cables are different -- and I would never post that on here if I did not have first-hand experience. But using a standard consumer-grade Belkin FW cable (6ft)... not so good. Using their higher end, shielded, gold-contact, bla-bla-bla cable actually helped. I HIGHLY recommend a properly shielded FW cable.

All that said, the footage on the FS-100 itself was always fine. So it's somewhere in the ingestion phase. So far, I'm leaning toward believing that it is simply a VERY SENSITIVE process that can draw interference from any number of weak links along the chain... Mediocre cables and/or slower drive speeds and/or low RAM could all be potential culprits. I've seen how the Cables can do it, AND how a RAID or Internal HD without enough available capacity can also create dropouts....

Barry -- I would like to know what your confidence in FCP is based on, by the way. Because I'm not convinced that the P2 Import tool is not partially to blame...

And thanks for starting the thread, by the way...

Kyle
 
Whathafa said:
Barry -- I would like to know what your confidence in FCP is based on, by the way. Because I'm not convinced that the P2 Import tool is not partially to blame...
Click to expand...

Two things. First, I've done hundreds of card offloads using a PC to offload the card to an external hard disk, and then plug that external hard disk into a Mac and import the cards. Never a glitch, never an issue. FCP works fine. And the cards are fine. It's the process of accessing the data on the cards on a Mac that appears to cause the glitch.

The second thing is the example Kevin listed above: he plugs the card in, looks at the contents with P2 Log, and it's already glitched. FCP isn't even involved in that process.

If I had to bet, I'd say FCP is innocent. It's an OS-level thing.
 
Whathafa said:
Barry,

Have you had the same dropouts using P2 LOG, by chance?

Kyle
Click to expand...
I haven't, but I've only used it a little. Look above, Kevin (n8ture) is having the same problem with P2 Log.
 
Hey everybody,

A month or so ago I shot a concert using the FS-100 as it was the only long form way of recording 1080i without being tethered to a computer. Anyhow i thought everything looked great until I dumped the P2 footage off the FS-100 only to find that clips were skipping at odd intervals during key parts of the performance. At first I thought that I may have still had some time lapse settings going but I shot an interview with the band afterwards and the whole thing came out without a single glitch.

I had read of some other user having similar problems under these conditions where speakers were blaring sound waves into this device. I was about 30 to 20ft from a large tower of speakers and I had effectively dampened the vibrations that shot through the wooden riser I was on but it seems as if the FS-100 is very sensitive to soundwaves.

Barry? Anyone? Firestore?

Your thoughts!
 
Barry please ask Jan or someone at Panasonic to take the loss and roll out the 72gig cards!

Panasonic's only mistake really. The firestore is great don't get me wrong but it's too delicate for most real world work.

These 8gig cards have already paid for themselves please roll out the ones we NEEEED!
 
Once the 32gb or 64gb cards are out, it's going to signal a quantum shift in the way people work with and perceive the concept of a tapeless workflow! I'm working on an article to describe the system now.
 
http://www.apple.com/feedback/finalcutpro.html

I'm on the war path (literally, I'm Cherokee, and I'm pissed) with my beloved Apple now. The bugs in Macs trying to handle P2 data is just getting ridiculous.

PLEASE if you use FCP go to the above URL and let Apple know how bad it is and how very upset we are, ASAP! It is the most sure fire way to get Apple to move their ass!

IMHO, from trying to trouble shoot this with others, and now having the problem myself, I'm convinced it's the P2 Driver for the Mac.

Bear in mind a huge chunk of the HVX200 market are FCP users, and the overwhelming majority of FS-100 market are FCP users. Make a noise!!!!!!

Slightly OT-
Some of us are relying on these systems to make a living TODAY, not when future products may or may not come out. But for the sake of pondering future, as of yet don't exist products, will a pair of 64Gig P2 cards be the same or better price than the FS-100 (i.e. affordable/realistically priced)?
 
Back in March, I noticed this type of artifacting while downloading on set. We were using FCP to import the footage (the guys doing the post didn't care about the MXF files) through the PCMIA slot of my Powerbook G4, and we were backing up to two drives. Importing to one and then copying over to another. I was watching the footage in FCP and there was a glitch in a single frame in one shot, so I opened its duplicate up from the other drive in the QT player and there's no glitch. I open the file in FCP and play it again, there's no glitch. So at this point, I'm feeling pretty good, and I play it again. The glitch appears again - the EXACT same glitch. Maybe I didn't notice it the first time, but I don't think so, I was watching pretty carefully. Anyway, I took it to the QT player, and the glitch appeared in there as well. Out of 4 hours we recorded that day, there was two other glitches and that was it. It didn't ruin the shoot, but it sure was annoying.

Since then, I've been making backups of the original P2 folders and MXF files. I have run into more glitches appearing in FCP, but when I re-imported the same footage from my MXF backups, I didn't have any glitches - most of the time. One time, it happened to the exact same frame twice (same glitch too) after a few run throughs in the timeline. When I re-imported a 3rd time for that clip, it never did it again. And this particular project I imported through the camera to a G5, rather than the powerbook g4 route. I didn't keep count on that project, but I'd say I had about 5-6 glitches for about 3 hrs of footage.

I haven't really investigated if it is a particular p2 card of mine or not that's causing the problems, but I don't think so. I shot about 40hrs of footage for a documentary over the summer using 4x 4gb cards and a p2 store for import about 99% of the time. Not a single glitch. Go figure.

Garrett
 
I'll chime in also, I've shot 40-50 hours of DV50 footage, offloading the P2 cards to a powerbook via PCMCIA slot and using P2 log.

I have found one single frame of corruption. Im satisfied that I haven't missed any either.
 
i recorded 1080/25 with DV rack HD running under bootcamp and there where the same kind of glitches.
 
Shortly after getting my first camera I offloaded camera through firewire to Macbook pro. At least half of everything I shot that day showed massive drop frames.

The other issue I have is that if I preview a time lapse sequence on the camera after shooting it, the next clip I take will be corrupted (unreadable) unless I reboot the camera before shooting again. No problem if I just shoot next clip without playing back.

I also hate the fact that Panasonic would not put at least a 100 GB drive in unit and if you dump a partially used cards in P2 Store you loose capacity. The whole disk file structure sucks. It does not even give sequential file numbering to help keep track of files.
 
I have a macbook pro, the latest FCP and not a single problem with dropframes or artifacts on the clip. The only issue I have is when I plug in the camera to my mac, turn it on and switch to pc mode (firewire of course), only one card shows up. I then have to turn the camera off and on again and only then the 2 p2 cards will show up.
 
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