Side By Side Comparison: Artist vs. Director (regarding music video!)

The best lesson here is why would a skinny white kid want to experience the world of rap? Regardless it's about being a professional even if the people you are dealing with are not. They don't have to be rappers to take advantage of you and believe me, somewhere there's someone taking advantage of an uneducated rapper.

One of the only ways for a no name videographer to get experience with music videos is to work with a no name artist and get some experience. Sometimes it's good and sometimes it's bad but NEVER bad talk a client in public! That's right, this person was your client. I'd never hire someone who I know does that, would you?

It's just part of the many lessons we all have to learn to make money in this business. :beer: :beer:
 
Man.... I feel for ya. Been in similar situations. My mother in law has an expression for this. It's when people mistake your kindness for weakness and they push you to your limits... I actually shot a video once where we didn't even roll tape.. we were just there to look the part and act like we were shooting video. That was the craziest thing ever. Got there... rapper said he didn't want us to shoot a thing.. just be seen and that's it!


Personally, I would have bailed within the first hour. Part of this culture is pushing whatever they can to your limit. You should have stood up for yourself and let them know that you aren't going to get taken advantage of. It's like a shell game.... A lot of times when the rappers would come to get a video I did, they wouldn't have the cash and would beg for the tape. I'd tell them that if they didn't have the cash in a couple of hours I was going to be a crazy cracker and burn everything just out of spite... If you do more of them, just stand up for yourself and things might be better. There's a lot of bad rap music out there.. but they are the ones with the money for the videos..


looks nice though and not a cheap free one. As far as being a skinny white boy from the suburbs... I used to be that, and then I started grappling and now I do Ving Tsun Kungfu. You might want to look into that.. you can check out my school here: www.vingtsun.cc People are less likely to push you around if they know you can defend yourself in case it comes out. People only bully those that don't fight back..


Chaulk it up to experience.. and thanks for sharing... Everyone can learn from this and get paid next time, playa!
 
carlone said:
The best lesson here is why would a skinny white kid want to experience the world of rap? Regardless it's about being a professional even if the people you are dealing with are not. They don't have to be rappers to take advantage of you and believe me, somewhere there's someone taking advantage of an uneducated rapper.

One of the only ways for a no name videographer to get experience with music videos is to work with a no name artist and get some experience. Sometimes it's good and sometimes it's bad but NEVER bad talk a client in public! That's right, this person was your client. I'd never hire someone who I know does that, would you?

It's just part of the many lessons we all have to learn to make money in this business. :beer: :beer:
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But isn't this the point of the forum? For fellow people who work in the same medium to talk and discuss? I don't really consider this a "public" forum in the most literal sense. Yes, anyone can use it, and yes, it is a popular forum among tech-heads, but beyond that, I don't come here looking for clients.

I just thought I'd share the experience to see who else has gone through similar situations and who could relate.

Thanks for the sharing!
 
Hmm, a lot of people have given you some good advice...but here's my two cents. The work is good...and if you shot this in 9 hours and are nineteen yrs old, you are a genius in the making. Who ever tells you that you are being taken advantage of sadly will never make it into the big league. Becoming a film director will take months, and years of unpaid work. Those that think they are above it are foolish.

Regarding your cut...lots of good work..a bit of a shame for some of the shaky hand held stuff..Personally I would have preferred to see one of your color treatments all the way through..too many good ideas might be spoiling a stronger overall feel.

Regarding your attitude. Collaboration is really important...This rapper guy put you in a lot of good situations to shoot...he may not have a great song, or good intentions, but I think you maybe underestimated the production value you got...even if you were coerced into it.

I say, try and give this guy something good...stay friends with him...that doesn't mean kiss his %$*%....and build your reel. Help him out: who knows, you might end up in prison cell with him and he will save your butt!

Perhaps you brought this subject to the forum for the wrong reason, but it opened an interesting conversation. And my bet is that you are proud of your work and wanted us to see it.

I make commercials. For every well paid job I get I spend days, sometimes weeks writing treatments and pitching. If you lost 9 hours, or even two weeks I would say get ready to lose lot's more time...but there are some great rewards out there and you are probably talented enough to reap them.

www.jonathanlennard.com www.jonathanlennard.net
 
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IMO, I always try to "give better than I get." I did a music video for a rapper where my friend and I showed up, followed him around all day, filmed, and then my editor put together a rough video. The rapper hasn't seen it because he dropped off the radar a month ago, but will eventually pop back up, I'm sure.

I agree with Johney5, tho. Your work is your signature, it's your autograph, so always give your best, no matter the situation. Even if they put you in a shitty place, try to find a way to make it look good, not for him, but for you. Even if it's work with a bad client, bad storyboard and a bad location, when you're putting together a demo, you're going to wish you'd put more effort into your shooting because that's what you're selling yourself on.

Even if the work with the client goes nowhere, do your best not to bad talk, either. Sometimes it's easy, but it can put you in a bad habit and you will wind up getting caught when you least expect it, and burned. It's a habit you don't want to get in to.

But either way, always give your best, even when you think they're taking advantage of your generosity. Because in reality, YOU are using THEM, as well. You're getting lots of free access to locations, you've got lots of willing subjects for your camera, and you should make the most out of it so that you can put together a great product and then get paid for your next one.

And trust me, locations & subjects are harder than it seems. Every time I go out in public w/ my camera, everybody gives me dirty looks and I'll get hassled a lot. Trying to film people out in public is an exercise in seeing how long you can go until the cops show up or some person who thinks you're stalking them comes over and hassles you. So if you had 30 people and a rapper trying to get in front of your camera, get every moment out of it you can and see what you can do with it.

IMO, every gig leads you to your next gig, so if you think about how you can get the most out of this shot to look better for your next gig, you'll get a lot farther than getting angry about how your current gig isn't paying and how they're taking advantage of you.
 
mrWr0ng said:
IMO, I always try to "give better than I get." I did a music video for a rapper where my friend and I showed up, followed him around all day, filmed, and then my editor put together a rough video. The rapper hasn't seen it because he dropped off the radar a month ago, but will eventually pop back up, I'm sure.

I agree with Johney5, tho. Your work is your signature, it's your autograph, so always give your best, no matter the situation. Even if they put you in a shi*ty place, try to find a way to make it look good, not for him, but for you. Even if it's work with a bad client, bad storyboard and a bad location, when you're putting together a demo, you're going to wish you'd put more effort into your shooting because that's what you're selling yourself on.

Even if the work with the client goes nowhere, do your best not to bad talk, either. Sometimes it's easy, but it can put you in a bad habit and you will wind up getting caught when you least expect it, and burned. It's a habit you don't want to get in to.

But either way, always give your best, even when you think they're taking advantage of your generosity. Because in reality, YOU are using THEM, as well. You're getting lots of free access to locations, you've got lots of willing subjects for your camera, and you should make the most out of it so that you can put together a great product and then get paid for your next one.

And trust me, locations & subjects are harder than it seems. Every time I go out in public w/ my camera, everybody gives me dirty looks and I'll get hassled a lot. Trying to film people out in public is an exercise in seeing how long you can go until the cops show up or some person who thinks you're stalking them comes over and hassles you. So if you had 30 people and a rapper trying to get in front of your camera, get every moment out of it you can and see what you can do with it.

IMO, every gig leads you to your next gig, so if you think about how you can get the most out of this shot to look better for your next gig, you'll get a lot farther than getting angry about how your current gig isn't paying and how they're taking advantage of you.
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Valid points all around. And I feel your pain when it comes to locations. It's surprising how hard it is to get a call back from the Austin Film Commission, since we're considered a "film-friendly" city. But trying to get through all the red tape and land a permit for a location is one helluva an experience.

Just the other day I got shut down after setting up lights and equipment in a parking garage for a performance video. We didn't have a permit but everyone involved, the band included, was willing to roll the dice and see what would happen. Sadly, it didn't work out in our favor this time around, but you gotta try it every once in a while. I will say Austin Studios is VERY helpful and I've shot several videos there. Unfortunately, I can't shoot every music video I do in a former airplane hanger...gotta diversify.

It's odd, but I recently did a music video that had 24 actors from 3 states travel to Austin without pay, we shot at 10 locations over two days and it was the easiest shoot I've ever done. The band trusted me to get the video done and sat back and said "go for it, call us when you need us" and it turned out to be a video I'm proud of.

I think the point is to try and work with your artist to where everyone is satisfied creatively and that way, when it's time to shoot, everyone be on the right page and let each person do their job and not interfere.

Good stuff all around guys.
 
johney5 said:
Who ever tells you that you are being taken advantage of sadly will never make it into the big league. Becoming a film director will take months, and years of unpaid work. Those that think they are above it are foolish.
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No kidding, hey whatever experience you got, both good and bad, take it in. The guy may have been a total joker, but you're not and it shows in your work. Keep the relationship, but don't be afraid to explain to him where the bear craps in the forest when you need to.

I've taken projects like this before, and have chalked it all up to damn good experience regardless of the outcome.


johney5 said:
I make commercials. For every well paid job I get I spend days, sometimes weeks writing treatments and pitching. If you lost 9 hours, or even two weeks I would say get ready to lose lot's more time...but there are some great rewards out there and you are probably talented enough to reap them.
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And more time you shall lose. The way I see it, this has never been a by the hour job. My business partner and I just spent three days hiking over rugged river beds to film our fly fishing show. We only caught one fish. More than anyone else did those days but for sure, we'll be ready to do it again, because when that check does come in, and our names are on the doors it will be worth it.

Keep it up, stand proud and you will make it happen! I loved your version all the way! :)
 
Gaaack, I put myself in your shoes for the day. Sounds like it was miserable. Can I say Gaaaack again?
Can't stand people like that dude, client or no client. He totally and completely manipulated you. AND you did two edits for him. You should demand the rest of your pay from him. STEP UP TO THE PLATE!!. Don't let him or ANYONE walk all over you like that. This is a little taste of Hollywood and it will EAT YOU ALIVE and spit you out on the curb without looking back if you LET IT.
Show him your 19 year old BALLS, and let him know that you aren't afraid to use them.
 
Man, I really liked the footage you got there, although I'm not really a big fan of rap.

I don't know a lot about filming techniques, I'm just starting out. Just wondering, what settings you used for filming?
 
both versions were good. it's a pretty damn good video, i have to say. better than a lot of the rap videos on MTV. As for your dealings with the guy, you are going to have to learn to stand up for yourself, or just don't be involved in riskier projects like this. all in all, it's a good thing he took you around town to the barber shops and cell phone places, because those turned out to be good shots. i agree that the rapper guy provided you with some nice shooting opportunities. he may not be the easiest guy to get along with, but it's good that you met him halfway. he knows more about what image he needs to portray in the rap world than you probably do. then again, you obviously have a good grasp of how to present these images.

don't stress over this at all. you did good and learned some lessons.
 
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If anybody else has to do business with up and coming hip hop artists give me a call. I happen to be black and from a run down urban area. First you have to understand every rapper you will likely meet is a hustler. Some are good at it most aren't. You have to understand that unlike most other types of music the rappers feel like this is there only way out.

This tread brings back memories. I remember someone said to me when I lived in East Cleveland that I was cheating because I had a mother and a father. If I didn't have my father I probably would have not made it out. I started rapping when I was 14 and we had to get money for the studio so you learn how to make something out of nothing.
You didn't get raped you got hustled. They could have stole your camera equipment. I saw it happen 3 years ago. Snatch!

If I went on a Country Music video shoot in wherever country music is made at night in a remote location in the woods. Shizzziiit I'm already sweating from typing it.

Basically now you have been to the hood and made it out. Next time you go they will say oh its just him. And next time you won't get hustled as much.
Peep my site at www.quickmoneymusic.com to see what rap music should sound like.
 
This is why whne you shoot free, dont edit it. Jsut send him Footage Dubs. He will find someone to edit locally. I shot a Music Vid i na similar situation, my first "work that wasnt art". Though i had more fun, and the artist did what he was told, but i gave him the tapes. (dubs) he cut it wit hhis friend to his satisfaction. everyone was happy. the trouble starts in the editing room. Just let them destroy it to theri hearts contenet.

Your CC was nice. Your vesion while more disjoined and less "linear" worked way better.
 
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