Mixed emotions about Horrorfest

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Rubix³

Rubix³

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I agree with a post I read earlier preferring the judging being done by a dedicated panel. To me, it was obvious that the majority of voters in this competition let their opinion of the director or film as a whole impact their individual scores.

For instance, I saw a few that I thought were great, but I hated the (musical) scores. So no matter how good the actual movie was, I voted accordingly giving no quarter to the score. It might be 9s in all other departments and a 1 on the score.

For this competition, I think people generalized their votes for the movies under the 5th place mark. In fact, I don't think, I know they did - I read posts of those that admitted it. They'd watch one, settle on an overall 3.5 score, and just "fill-right" across the cells (not literally, but you get the point). Or they'd lower other scores to make up for their opinion on one scored section. Yes I'm a firm believer in a dedicated enjoyability section, but this spreadsheet was broken into specific parts meant for us to follow.

When it comes to the comments about support & "love" mentioned in other posts, I saw a bit of it. I tuned in to the individual film discussions late, so re-reading some of the posts I do see a bit of "super niceness" and flat-out ass kissing by some (I won't name names). Sounds silly on an internet forum but we all know that it does happen.

I really think JDS deserved to win. So in the midst of my complaints, I still feel the best person won. This factor keeps me going on this board.

When it comes to the bottom listers:
I freely admit that I was pissed for a good 5 minutes when I saw where my movie ranked, but I was never surprised. I didn't think that I'd win... it's the first camera I've ever owned, and the first time I've ever been both acting & the director. I say this once and only once, this doesn't entitle me to any more credit than the actual product deserves. I also had an idea how everyone would vote. And unfortunately they did vote this way.

This isn't an attempt to bitterly defend my movie, only taking one point from my movie as an example: even if you hated the story, hated the flaws in the vfx (which probably sunk me the most), and hated other things, there's no reason for my sound to rank in the same range as everything else you hated. The sound section isn't a section easily argued, it's pretty matter-of-factual, and I know I did better than the 4-5ish I received, parallel and equal to all my other ratings. And sound rating comparatively in this competition? I can't say "you be the judge" and keep a straight face.

The nice thing about part of the negatives I mentioned above, is that they can be compared directly to the real world. There's tons of self promotion, ass kissing, and good movies left on the side of the road. I think this fest brought out a lot in people. At the end of the day it's harmless, but I certainly do feel like I know you all a bit better. For better or worse.

I had to be honest with you - this was on my mind because we all competed together, and in a way, went to war together. Odds are half of you hate me now. Remember, these are just the words of one user, and a user not very well known on this board at that.

Chew on it or spit it out. You're free. - Anthony Burgess
 
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I think the cry for an "entertainment" category or "X Factor" category has been trumpeted many times post fest. Hopefully that will be added and should end the "I loved the film but scored it low" phenomenon or marking a film generally across all the categories to get it where you wanted.

What I tried to do was look at the score and if it didn't reflect how I felt about the film I tried to think a little harder about why I liked it and divvy that up amongst the categories. So if it was weak in script or acting but just looked so cool I didn't care I would up the cinematography score. If it looked like poo but still got me then I would think about scoring and sound design and acting and script and see if they deserved a point bump up in one or more of those areas based on how well they were working on me. Same goes for a film that scored higher than I liked. Well what was lacking that I was maybe to generous about in my first vote ... drop a point here, there, etc. So that's how I tried to work within the system to neither arbitrarily mark a general quality vote across the board, nor live with scores that I felt didn't reflect the impact of the film.

But I can't imagine (but DON'T quote me on this) that there won't be an entertainment or "X" factor category next go around, preferably with a Director category as well, and that should alleviate some of the issues you raised.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Jack
 
After I was done with my ratings, I got a group of 7 people together, and we watched the majority of the movies. These 7 knew nothing about the DVX and really anything about cinematography & the technical aspects of filmmaking. Just average, mainstream viewers. I printed them all up a list and had them rate the ones they liked the best, period. Interesting results that were so black&white different from ours.
 
Rubix³ said:
After I was done with my ratings, I got a group of 7 people together, and we watched the majority of the movies. These 7 knew nothing about the DVX and really anything about cinematography & the technical aspects of filmmaking. Just average, mainstream viewers. I printed them all up a list and had them rate the ones they liked the best, period. Interesting results that were so black&white different from ours.
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I'd be curious to see those results. It's nice to know what nonfilmmakers think.
 
I think part of the problem some people have when the fest scores are announced is that we, being more film tech savvy, tend to view/rate the films much more differently than the average film viewer would.

We aren't just watching a film for the purpose of escapism, rather are minds have been trained to look for the lighting setups, listen for the audio, examine color grading, etc, etc.

An average audience member just wants to enjoy a great film and usually the only comments I hear from "average" viewers is in regards to the acting. Occasionally to the effects, and sometimes the set dressing.

As a result, while it is an interesting comparison, I don't think it is a fair comparison to check the "overall" score from non-technical viewers to the scores presented by the members here.

But, I also think that part of the score is reflective of the voters feelings of/toward the filmmaker...and that may not be necessarily all that bad. Think about it, if you aren't sure about a mainstream Hollywood film but really like the filmmaker, then you'll go see it anyway. And it does have an influence on your overall feeling about the film. That is part of the whole package, does the filmmaker present himself in a way that makes you glad to be involved in his project (as a viewer) and has he/she in the past provided great work that makes you excited for their next project?

It's part of the marketing "process" that we each must learn.

Just my $0.01 9/10
 
Another option would be to eliminate the categories altogether, and rate each film 1-100 (1-10 would chance too many ties). I think this is what Rubix is kind of getting to anyway.

I too think the best overall film won, but there were others that (IMO) deserved better placing.
 
Let's not forget...the purpose of these "fests" is to get filmmakers out there making films. The prizes are just a bonus and an incentive to complete a project.

The ratings are a way for the other filmmakers here on the boards give feedback regarding what worked and what didn't work in the film.

The goal, as I understand it, is to provide prizes as a "thank you" for participating, but the real prize for the filmmaker is the individual category ratings, so they see what area(s) they should work on in the future in order to become a better filmmaker.
 
I think the whole purpose of having multiple categories was to learn. Learn in what areas we had to continue to work on. It is very valuable to see what people thought of the cinematography, sound, ect.

But a best in fest (or first overall) should go to the best film. And I think we can all agree that the best films are more than the sum of their parts, while some terrible films are much much less (glossy bad hollywood films).

Thus, the voter tweaks those individual categories to fit their idea of what the best films are, skewing the otherwise valuable results on the individual categories.

Best solution would probably keep all individual categories non competition (like sfx) and add a single overall which is the only category to count. Then the individual categories would be much more accurate. And I bet the top 3 would have still been the same.
 
Larry R said:
I think part of the problem some people have when the fest scores are announced is that we, being more film tech savvy, tend to view/rate the films much more differently than the average film viewer would.

We aren't just watching a film for the purpose of escapism, rather are minds have been trained to look for the lighting setups, listen for the audio, examine color grading, etc, etc.

An average audience member just wants to enjoy a great film and usually the only comments I hear from "average" viewers is in regards to the acting. Occasionally to the effects, and sometimes the set dressing.

As a result, while it is an interesting comparison, I don't think it is a fair comparison to check the "overall" score from non-technical viewers to the scores presented by the members here.

But, I also think that part of the score is reflective of the voters feelings of/toward the filmmaker...and that may not be necessarily all that bad. Think about it, if you aren't sure about a mainstream Hollywood film but really like the filmmaker, then you'll go see it anyway. And it does have an influence on your overall feeling about the film. That is part of the whole package, does the filmmaker present himself in a way that makes you glad to be involved in his project (as a viewer) and has he/she in the past provided great work that makes you excited for their next project?

It's part of the marketing "process" that we each must learn.

Just my $0.01 9/10
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You're right, and I agree. Even being a newbie. Lately, I find myself commenting (far too much according to the people around me :) ) on "color correction" and cam settings whenever I'm watching something. Even stuff I've seen 100 times.

Though I think as filmmakers we need to possess the ability to step out of the box when viewing films and view them as a true audience - the way we were when we were all "fans" first. I can do this.

After all, as aspiring filmmakers, isn't the non-technical audience the most important?

seejay1031 said:
I think the whole purpose of having multiple categories was to learn. Learn in what areas we had to continue to work on. It is very valuable to see what people thought of the cinematography, sound, ect.

But a best in fest (or first overall) should go to the best film. And I think we can all agree that the best films are more than the sum of their parts, while some terrible films are much much less (glossy bad hollywood films).

Thus, the voter tweaks those individual categories to fit their idea of what the best films are, skewing the otherwise valuable results on the individual categories.

Best solution would probably keep all individual categories non competition (like sfx) and add a single overall which is the only category to count. Then the individual categories would be much more accurate. And I bet the top 3 would have still been the same.
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I'm 100% in agreement with you and I think this is the answer.
 
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Glideshot said:
Another option would be to eliminate the categories altogether, and rate each film 1-100 (1-10 would chance too many ties). I think this is what Rubix is kind of getting to anyway.

I too think the best overall film won, but there were others that (IMO) deserved better placing.
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I hear ya. I just think the categories would help if they weren't skewed like mentioned above. Though, if the voters are all of us, I'm not sure that they won't end up skewed for certain reasons. 1-100 overall would work just fine.
 
I'd have to say that there were definitely some surprises for me. One example is Broken Circle, which should have finished MUCH higher than it did.

I do agree that the voting/judging process does need an overhaul. Basically, if people followed the instructions, then the overall score would be the average of six categories: cinematography, editing, sound, score, screenplay and acting. As filmmakers on a DVX forum, this at first seems reasonable enough. But to rate a film as a whole, based simply on ONLY six categories, seems a bit "undernourished". There are many other "departments" involved in making a film. And how about directing? That probably should be one the first categories on the sheet if you're going to average in something.

But the simple truth is, initially the average person who is going to pick up their camera and shoot something to enter in a DVXUser.com contest will do the following:

- Knock out a first draft of a "script", which is also the final draft
- Call some friends, family, and ask "you wanna be in my movie?"
- Get together on the weekend at the house/backyard/nearby woods/school
- Shoot it without really adhering to the script
- Load the footage into their computer
- Cut it together
- Add a few "really cool" sound effects for emphasis here and there
- Bang out a quick soundtrack or maybe call in a favor to somebody
- FINISHED

Total time spent on the project, maybe a couple of weeks right before the deadline, WHICH THEY WILL LET EVERYONE HERE KNOW.

So, looking at the categories again, yeah, they seem to fit this model extremely well, and rewards as such.

BUT GUESS WHAT?

The bar has been raised. Our little home movies have grown up. People aren't just picking up their camera and shooting whatever. The production value on a LOT of the films in HorrorFest are outstanding!

And so, the judging of these contests should mature as well. Band-aid fixes like adding an "X-Factor" category, won't cut it. There really does need to be a revamping of the process.


John G.
 
Larry R said:
That second quote in Post #9 should be attributed to "seejay1031", not myself. I don't hold to that plan and, personally, I don't think it fits the purpose, intent, or nature of this fest.
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My fault - copied the quote tags. Fixed.
 
Larry R said:
Let's not forget...the purpose of these "fests" is to get filmmakers out there making films. The prizes are just a bonus and an incentive to complete a project.

The ratings are a way for the other filmmakers here on the boards give feedback regarding what worked and what didn't work in the film.

The goal, as I understand it, is to provide prizes as a "thank you" for participating, but the real prize for the filmmaker is the individual category ratings, so they see what area(s) they should work on in the future in order to become a better filmmaker.
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Thank you, Larry. That's exactly it, and it's why DVXFest is different from every other festival. There are no entry fees, there is no "acceptance or rejection", everybody gets in, everybody gets exhibited, everybody gets voted on.

With that said, we've been listening to what's been happening here, and we will adjust things appropriately for future festivals.
 
seejay1031 said:
I think the whole purpose of having multiple categories was to learn. Learn in what areas we had to continue to work on. It is very valuable to see what people thought of the cinematography, sound, ect.

.
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I disagree with your assessment on how the rating for these categories works. e.g. my sound and score not only IMO were amongst the best of the fest (rhymes)...however i got very low scores, of course I dont care about it coz i know how i feel about these 2 areas, but let's not be to easy on saying that we learn a lot from these categories, these categories helped me to evaluate others...to focus on each specific category thus seeing myself what X user did good with lights or not and then try to learn from this..people thought that my score for love was better than the one for the door between, the first was soundtrack loops put together, the 2nd one had a score plus 2 songs fully arranged and performed by my brother and their quality (quality i say,not how they are liked by others) was one of the best in horrorfest, so what did I learn from this? Nada! i ll keep on using my brother to do sound and score coz in my team he is not only the only professional, but he know his stuff
 
I understand everyone's concerns regarding the fest and to echo Barry's comments, they have not gone unnoticed.

Regardless of whether you walked away with an HVX from this fest or whether you walked away with an Excel spreadsheet listing scores you disagree with, ultimately the one thing that this fest did was provide you motivation to go out and make a film and have a community of your peers watch and comment on it.

In my opinion, that is more valuable than anything else because from every project you work on you will take the experience and knowledge and move forward to make a better product the next time.

Congrats to EVERYONE who entered, you all accomplished something remarkable in my opinion.
 
Amen. change is good. But the key things, listed by Barry & Larry... That's what it's all about. Everything else is just icing.

Jason
 
ps. i think to properly rate these categories you need professionals with good and solid background, otherwise its just a 'i liked your lighting but that dont mean i know a whole lot more than you do about lights', I ve never used lights, i dont own a lighting kit, i m not sure i can properly use them, yet you have put your trust in me voting about your cinematography.....
 
Jeremy Ordan said:
I understand everyone's concerns regarding the fest and to echo Barry's comments, they have not gone unnoticed.

Regardless of whether you walked away with an HVX from this fest or whether you walked away with an Excel spreadsheet listing scores you disagree with, ultimately the one thing that this fest did was provide you motivation to go out and make a film and have a community of your peers watch and comment on it.

In my opinion, that is more valuable than anything else because from every project you work on you will take the experience and knowledge and move forward to make a better product the next time.

Congrats to EVERYONE who entered, you all accomplished something remarkable in my opinion.
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Amen to that! i ve said something along these lines from the day after the excel was released, to me its motivation to film. However in order to justify why I talked about sound and stuff in here, I merely did it to prove the point of learning from the scores. I disagree with that. You learn by comparing your stuff to others and by their COMMENTS, not their marks.
 
Assuming that the user group continues to place votes as opposed to an anonymous screening panel, I would like to see two specific changes.

1) Anonymity. All filmmakers would submit their desire to enter into the festival in a secure and non public manner. Their films would be assigned a non descriptive title (film #01, #02, etc) and would not include title cards nor filmmakers credits (for the judged on-line version) which could identify any of the filmmakers involved.

2) Films would be judged on any criteria that the voter chose, but only a single number would be assigned to the film as a whole. Subsequent to the announcement of "the winners" (based solely upon the single number voting criteria) individual comments from both the viewers and filmmakers would be allowed.

I understand that this could have a negative effect at the head of the project for some users here as the "buzz" wouldn't be generated prior to the films release (participants would be allowed to discuss their experience, ask questions, with the only limit being that they can not divulge the films identity prior to the end of voting). What would then happen is that after the contest portion was over, a frank discussion of the films merits (or lack thereof) could occur without the undue influence of a contest yet to be judged. The upside in terms of user group participation would be that when the judging was over the real participation would begin and the interest in the contest would be extended (other than the post voting congratulations which occurs in the current contest format).
 
extremely difficult scenario,why?

a)you cant control the pre-release discussions, maybe I want some help with a night shoot that involves 100 cars, day comes, people see the movies, oh yes, 100 cars, that's versus' movie

b)most people star in their movies or use same actors, I cant afford real actors, i ll probably use the same friends/or myself...what then? am I dq?
 
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