is there such thing as TRIPHONIC sound?
- Thread starter dasonras
- Start date
Not really, but nothing really prevents you from putting whatever material you want on any of the speakers. Aside from being able to independently manupulate the relative volume of the individual channels during playback, there would be minimal audible advantage. A signal that is equal strength on the left and right channel is the same as being in the middle.
khmuse
Tech Guru
There are 3 channel recordings which date all the way back to the mid 50's. A British recording label know as Everest did a number of wonderful symphonic works (recored to full coat 35mm magnetic film). Over the last year and a half, I have been working with a high end audio label (Classic Records) to re-release these in both stereo down mix and full three channel formats. To date, we have completed 10 of the over 40 in the catalog.
Three channel is a valid and absolutely supported configuration for both Dolby Digital and DVD-Audio (either straight PCM or MLP). Any compliant consumer product will fully support this configuration as it is one of the many standard release formats.
Three channel is a valid and absolutely supported configuration for both Dolby Digital and DVD-Audio (either straight PCM or MLP). Any compliant consumer product will fully support this configuration as it is one of the many standard release formats.
Alan H. Chang
Veteran
Recording each character and then panning them is the best solution for you. Record them all in center mono/stereo. Then in post, pan the audio according to where the characters are in position.
I was an 'audiophile' type before I was a 'film/video' type ... I remember being very surprised when I first found out that film audio was recorded Mono.
'Real Stereo' recording, in a music sense, is still regarded by many as the pinnacle of audio reproduction. People spend tens of thousands of dollars on high end "Stereo" systems, to enjoy true stereo recordings ... particularly accoustic, classical, jazz, etc ... (not my thing!). There are so many aspects of room timbre, width (and depth) of sound-stage, imaging, etc. which only exist in real stereo (in a purist sense, of course).
There is a whole lot more to sound then just panning a mono recording in your dialogue mix
If this person wants to explore further, then good on them.
Can you clarify whether you plan on recording one mono track and playing back the audio for each actor from a separate speaker? OR, record with three mics, with playback to three corisponding speakers, with the intention of capturing complex room reverb / soundstage?
If you are recording mono and playing back each actor on a separate speaker, then all you are doing is compensating for inadiquacies in the speaker setup. I suppose you will get more "focus" from three well positioned cheap speakers, then 2 speak speakers and panning ....... but two nice speakers will image well enough to make 3 fairly redundant.
Hope that helps.
'Real Stereo' recording, in a music sense, is still regarded by many as the pinnacle of audio reproduction. People spend tens of thousands of dollars on high end "Stereo" systems, to enjoy true stereo recordings ... particularly accoustic, classical, jazz, etc ... (not my thing!). There are so many aspects of room timbre, width (and depth) of sound-stage, imaging, etc. which only exist in real stereo (in a purist sense, of course).
There is a whole lot more to sound then just panning a mono recording in your dialogue mix
If this person wants to explore further, then good on them.Can you clarify whether you plan on recording one mono track and playing back the audio for each actor from a separate speaker? OR, record with three mics, with playback to three corisponding speakers, with the intention of capturing complex room reverb / soundstage?
If you are recording mono and playing back each actor on a separate speaker, then all you are doing is compensating for inadiquacies in the speaker setup. I suppose you will get more "focus" from three well positioned cheap speakers, then 2 speak speakers and panning ....... but two nice speakers will image well enough to make 3 fairly redundant.
Hope that helps.
khmuse
Tech Guru
Clearly panned mono is not binaural as it only provides an amplitude (level) difference between the stereo sound scape. True stereo encompasses both amplitude, relative arrival time and phase differences between the two.
As has been pointed out, a well configured "hifi" stereo pair can simulate a "phantom center" (known in hifi terms as imaging) without much of any problem, assuming that the listener is situated between the speakers in a fairly balanced configuration.
Sound for film however does not make this assumption of the listening position and rather places most on camera dialog directly in the center regardless of the on screen speaker's (person) position in the screen. Off screen dialog can utilize a hard panned position as this isn't as critical to a poorly placed listener.
Recording spoken dialog in stereo is not a particularly good idea for a narrative film project as it simply leads to the potential of inter-channel phase shifts as the person moves in relationship to the microphone(s).
As has been pointed out, a well configured "hifi" stereo pair can simulate a "phantom center" (known in hifi terms as imaging) without much of any problem, assuming that the listener is situated between the speakers in a fairly balanced configuration.
Sound for film however does not make this assumption of the listening position and rather places most on camera dialog directly in the center regardless of the on screen speaker's (person) position in the screen. Off screen dialog can utilize a hard panned position as this isn't as critical to a poorly placed listener.
Recording spoken dialog in stereo is not a particularly good idea for a narrative film project as it simply leads to the potential of inter-channel phase shifts as the person moves in relationship to the microphone(s).
not stereo
not stereo
Yes, it will be recorded with one shotgun mic so it WILL be mono. I am specifically looking to breaking up the dialogue in post and assigning certain vocals to emit from either left, center, or right speaks.
However, after mapping out and storyboarding, I am proposing a second setup. Have one mic on actual dialogue and a second boom capturing the natural sound of the room. In this case, if someone is talking, say on the left side of the audience, their voice will predominantly be heard from the left speaker and the ambient echo of her voice will also emit softly to the other two speaks.
Oh, sorry i didn't clarify: to give you a better sense of what i am shooting: pretend we are looking at a wide shot of a theatre audience. There will be dialogue from an actor on the left side of the theatre, dialogue from an actor on the right side, and dialogue from an actor in the centre. I am simulating the true sounding effect as if you were standing on the stage of the theatre.
I am still debating whether or not to use the second microphone. If I did, i plan to plug both mic 1 into xlr channel 1 and mic 2 into xlr channel 2. So in this case, yes, technically it would be more "stereo" in the sense of capturing the audio. In post, i would isolate the channels and use them where appropriate.
not stereo
Yes, it will be recorded with one shotgun mic so it WILL be mono. I am specifically looking to breaking up the dialogue in post and assigning certain vocals to emit from either left, center, or right speaks.
However, after mapping out and storyboarding, I am proposing a second setup. Have one mic on actual dialogue and a second boom capturing the natural sound of the room. In this case, if someone is talking, say on the left side of the audience, their voice will predominantly be heard from the left speaker and the ambient echo of her voice will also emit softly to the other two speaks.
Oh, sorry i didn't clarify: to give you a better sense of what i am shooting: pretend we are looking at a wide shot of a theatre audience. There will be dialogue from an actor on the left side of the theatre, dialogue from an actor on the right side, and dialogue from an actor in the centre. I am simulating the true sounding effect as if you were standing on the stage of the theatre.
I am still debating whether or not to use the second microphone. If I did, i plan to plug both mic 1 into xlr channel 1 and mic 2 into xlr channel 2. So in this case, yes, technically it would be more "stereo" in the sense of capturing the audio. In post, i would isolate the channels and use them where appropriate.
khmuse
Tech Guru
Despite the fact that you will have a second microphone, this still isn't a stereo (binaural) technique, rather, you will be adding natural acoustical reverberation with the potential of panning this effect. To record true stereo, this second track would need to be captured with a stereo pair mic to a pair of audio channels.
The potential downside to your proposed technique is intelligibility issues. I would recommend testing first to confirm that you are happy with the results.
The potential downside to your proposed technique is intelligibility issues. I would recommend testing first to confirm that you are happy with the results.
Noiz2
Sound Ninja
while this may work for your experimental film, the reason dialog comes 99% out of the center is because it is very disorienting for the audience otherwise. First seating is usually about as wide as the screen so someone on the far right will have a hard time understanding dialog that's only on the far left only and visually the actor is more centered to that audience member. As you move back in the theatre the screen becomes more visually centered so again it doesn't sound right. Probably most people who mix sound for film have tried of center dialog at one point or other but it very rarley works.
As for "tripophonic" You might be thinking of Frippotronic. A term used to describe some very weird stuff that a musician (Robert, I think) Fripp did with delays and other strangeness in the early 80's. It would not surprise me at all if he used a three speaker system.
However film sound is mostly three track anyway. "Surround" mixes are mostly mixed to the front (L,C,R) and then have a little splash in the surrounds and a little in the subs for big boomy moments. But the focus is always on the front three because they are by far the most important and because they are the only speakers that can generally be counted on to play in any given theatre. Any stereo or matrixed sound track played through the Cinema processor will give you a three speaker spread.
As for "tripophonic" You might be thinking of Frippotronic. A term used to describe some very weird stuff that a musician (Robert, I think) Fripp did with delays and other strangeness in the early 80's. It would not surprise me at all if he used a three speaker system.
However film sound is mostly three track anyway. "Surround" mixes are mostly mixed to the front (L,C,R) and then have a little splash in the surrounds and a little in the subs for big boomy moments. But the focus is always on the front three because they are by far the most important and because they are the only speakers that can generally be counted on to play in any given theatre. Any stereo or matrixed sound track played through the Cinema processor will give you a three speaker spread.
khmuse
Tech Guru
Noiz2 said:
Robert Fripp of King Crimson did create a sound (specifically a guitar tuning style) that is employed by the "California Guitar Trio" which has been labeled by some as "Fripptronic". While a very innovative sound, this has nothing at all to do with Tri-Phonic recording / reproduction.
GenJerDan
Veteran
Frippertronics have nothing to do with the placement or number of mics.
It was two Revox B-77 tape decks sitting next to each other with the supply reel on one and the takeup on the other.
The sound was recorded on the first (supply reel) deck. The second deck was in playback mode, and the output was mixed into the first deck's input, layering the old, delayed sound with whatever was currently being recorded.
And it was all Eno's idea, anyway.
It was two Revox B-77 tape decks sitting next to each other with the supply reel on one and the takeup on the other.
The sound was recorded on the first (supply reel) deck. The second deck was in playback mode, and the output was mixed into the first deck's input, layering the old, delayed sound with whatever was currently being recorded.
And it was all Eno's idea, anyway.
Noiz2
Sound Ninja
khmuse said:
Wow I really havent been getting enough sleep. Yes "Fripptronic" was what I was trying to say. I thought delays, especially very long tape delays were a big part of that sound? Anyway I had never heard of Tri-Phonic, so I was just throwing it out there because it sounded like the word the poster had used and nobody else had offered anything. But Tri-Phonic is probably what he was talking about.
Thanks for the correction.
SK
Tapio M Köykkä, a Finnish audio engineer, introduced and patented a system called "Ortoperspekta" in 1962 in which the middle main speaker produces L+R, small side speakers L-R and R-L respectivelly. The main speaker fills the "hole" in the middle, side speakers simulate the reflections from the concert hall walls. With purist stereo recordings this works actually quite well.
You can use the difference signal without any extra equipment to get extra feeling of space by putting a pair of speakers in series at the opposite phase connected between the hot leads of left and right channels if you have second speaker connections in your power amp. I used to have those a long time ago and they really gave quite believable space effect especially with organ recordings. These side speakers should be placed on the side walls of the listening room.
You can use the difference signal without any extra equipment to get extra feeling of space by putting a pair of speakers in series at the opposite phase connected between the hot leads of left and right channels if you have second speaker connections in your power amp. I used to have those a long time ago and they really gave quite believable space effect especially with organ recordings. These side speakers should be placed on the side walls of the listening room.
Last edited: