30p vs. 24p vs. 24p Advanced

imageonepictures

imageonepictures

Well-known member
Hey,

Anyone here shoot 30p for their short film or feature because what I've seen I really cannot tell the difference in quality. My current budget only allows for 30p editing via Final Cut Express HD.

Will not 30p give enough picture information? What do people think?

Chris
 
imageonepictures said:
. My current budget only allows for 30p editing via Final Cut Express HD.
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You can still shoot 24pN and edit on a 60i timeline, if you want the 24p look, but can't edit in a 24p environment. You'll still keep the 24p look when you do it that way.
 
HorseFilms said:
You can still shoot 24pN and edit on a 60i timeline, if you want the 24p look, but can't edit in a 24p environment. You'll still keep the 24p look when you do it that way.
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so this might be something I missed before. I did notice on the new Sony V1 that you can record 24p and edit in 60i. It does the pull down in camera I guess. Then if you want to burn a DVD go ahead. if you want to add it back and edit native 24p then you need something like Vegas.

So on the DVX100 you can shot 24pN and edit in a 60i timeline? It also performs the pull down in camera? So if I just want to go straight to DVD and have the 24P look I can just shoot in 24pn. I will not need Final Cut Pro? I could even edit in iMovie or FCE and have the "24P look"

Did I read you right?
 
Zim said:
so this might be something I missed before. I did notice on the new Sony V1 that you can record 24p and edit in 60i.
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All 24p cameras do that. It's just that all other 24p cameras include a "24pA" mode that is designed for removing pulldown, to make editing 24p footage easier. The Sony doesn't include that option.

So on the DVX100 you can shot 24pN and edit in a 60i timeline? It also performs the pull down in camera?
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Yep, they all do. XL2, DVX, HVX, SDX, SPX, HDX, DSR450, JVC HD100... it's just the Sony that doesn't have the 24pA type of mode, whereas all the others let you do both.
 
The only way to record to tape is to insert pulldown, because when it's recorded, it's DV, so it must be 60i.

You probably shouldn't use the term "24pN," because that measns something entirely different on the HVX. "24p standard" is the better way of saying.

But yes, shooting 24p standard, you can edit in 60i. You can edit 24pA in 60i, too, because either way, it's recorded as 60i to tape and you can capture either as 60i files. But 24pA isn't meant for editing on 60i timeline; the pulldown is not arranged for optimal playback -- it's arranged for optimal pulldown removal.

24p standard pulldown IS arranged for optimal playback, so it's appropriate to be edited on a 60i timeline.

The 24p "look" is retained when you edit in in 60i.

But it's still best to edit in 24p. When you're editing in 60i, you're editing repeats of fields which weren't originally there. Better to edit the footage in its native timebase.
 
if you edited something in 24p standard in a 60i and edited 24PA in native 24 and burn both to DVD could you tell a difference?
 
Zim said:
if you edited something in 24p standard in a 60i and edited 24PA in native 24 and burn both to DVD could you tell a difference?
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Yes, because the DVD you author from the 60i timeline will be a 60i DVD. It will have the pulldown incorporated in it inherently, and that means if you go to play on a progressive DVD player on a progressive TV, you're stuck with interlace.

A 24p DVD has no pulldown incorporated. If you play on a progressive DVD player connected to a progressive TV (plasma/LCD/DLP/etc, or a computer monitor) then you'll get pure 24p footage displayed, no pulldown, no interlacing. If you play on an interlaced TV, the DVD player will automatically insert pulldown for you to make it compatible with the TV.

Plus, you can fit 20% more footage on a disc when you edit in a 24p timeline (or, alternately, you can use a lower compression ratio).
 
Zim said:
why did I think you had to have FCP to tape anything 24p?
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Don't know about on the Mac; I think 24p timelines aren't supported in FCE? Not sure. All the other main editors (Avid, Vegas, Premiere Pro, EDIUS, etc) all have full 24p timeline support.
 
Barry_Green said:
Don't know about on the Mac; I think 24p timelines aren't supported in FCE? Not sure. All the other main editors (Avid, Vegas, Premiere Pro, EDIUS, etc) all have full 24p timeline support.
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But you can do 24 standard in a 60i timline even in FCE?

Barry have seen what 24p standard looks like edited in a 60i timeline? Or 30p?
 
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Yes, you can edit 24p standard as 60i in FCE, or any other NLE.

It retains its 24p aesthetic; it still looks like 24p.

Where you might see a difference is on progressive displays. You'll see interlace artifacts on a computer screen if you stay in 60i; you won't see any in 24p.

Also, if you edit in 60i, you can only make a 60i DVD, not a 24p DVD -- and if you watch a 60i DVD on a progressive display, like an HDTV, you'll see interlace artifacts. You won't see that with a 24p DVD.
 
so how would 24p standard edited in 60i timeline look on broadcast TV. If it is done well? Isn't broadcast TV interlaced anyway?

If you edit 24p in a 24p timeline then it is broadcast interlaced anyway, are you gaining much?

My plans are to go DVD. Maybe with some luck TV. Just a couple of documentries we are going to do next year.

Down the road maybe something else. If I can save some cash on software that would be nice. I'm stressing myself out enough over the DVX or the V1.

If I could make a nice DVD shooting 24p standard that might save me a bundle.

If I can really get FCP for $499 that might be a different story too. I hope the guy was giving the discount price for the upgrade only.
 
Zim said:
so how would 24p standard edited in 60i timeline look on broadcast TV. If it is done well? Isn't broadcast TV interlaced anyway?

If you edit 24p in a 24p timeline then it is broadcast interlaced anyway, are you gaining much?

My plans are to go DVD. Maybe with some luck TV. Just a couple of documentries we are going to do next year.

Down the road maybe something else. If I can save some cash on software that would be nice. I'm stressing myself out enough over the DVX or the V1.

If I could make a nice DVD shooting 24p standard that might save me a bundle.

If I can really get FCP for $499 that might be a different story too. I hope the guy was giving the discount price for the upgrade only.
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Your asking the same question over and over again and about 4 people have answered it very in depth. 24p standard is ment for 60i timelines, it looks fine on broadcast tv, it looks just as good as 24pA except 24pA is ment for 23.976 timelines, not 29.97(60i).
- If you plan on broadcasting on tv, or mixing with 30p and 60i footage then shoot 24p standard.
- If you plan on authoring to 24p dvd or editing in 23.976(24pA) timeline then shoot 24pA.
 
mattmatheson said:
- If you plan on broadcasting on tv . . . then shoot 24p standard.
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No, the only question about which to shoot is how you'll be editing, not the delivery format. If you're editing in 24p, shoot 24pA. Whether or not it's going to broadcast TV is irrelevant. Re-inserting pulldown for broadcast after editing is not a problem.
 
I have always shot 24PA and edit in Premiere Pro 2.0 on the 24P timeline, BUT never filmed in 24PN and edit in 60i timeline....

QUESTION IS...is there that much of a visual differance?
 
In the actual footage, no, except that on a 60i timeline you'll see interlace artifacts in the mixed frames; you'll see no interlacing at all on a 24p timeline.

On a standard TV screen, if you were to shoot 24p standard (again, don't call it "24pN;" that's something different now that the HVX is around) and edit in 60i, and also shoot 24p, edit in 24p, and watch the final product of both, you won't see a difference if you've done nothing other than straight cuts. You'll see a difference on a progressive display, like a computer screen or a progressive TV with a progressive-scan DVD player -- you'll see the interlacing in the standard 24p/60i material; you won't with the 24p timeline material output as 24p.

The biggest problem, though, with editing 24p material on a 60i timeline is that any text or motion you may add (through panning and cropping, animated transitions, etc.), it will be rendered in 60i and it won't match the 24p footage in look or feel. There will be a palpable clash in the motion.

So, it's best to match your timeline with your footage.
 
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