24p versus 60i (yet again)

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pkondo

New member
I posted this over at creative cow but a few people told me to come over here. So here I am! Here is a copy of my post. Maybe some dedicated dvx100a users can help me out.

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It seems the more I read, the more I get confused. I'm wondering if I'm overthinking this whole thing.

I'll be working on a documentary using a dvx100a. Because I'm an optimist, I'll assume this doc will be seen by millions on video and film. ;-)

In the chance that this will get bought and released in the theatres and/or be shown on tv, I'm trying to figure out the best option to shoot in.

I don't know how footages gets transferred to the end product and what can be done to make those frame rate transitions. Is it easier/cheaper to shoot in 24p or 60i for potential outputs to dvd/video AND film? What do filmmakers typically shoot in? When do I consider 24pa?

We are looking for that "film look." But that brings me to the next question which I also don't understand. If I shoot in 24p and cut in 29.97 (or do I cut in a 23.98 timeline?) and outputting to dvd, do I notice that film look? Or does that go by the wayside when it's show on dvd?

I have heard of things like Nattress Converters to make 60i look like 24p and am willing to do that if necessary. I just don't know if it is necessary if I choose the correct frame rate to start off with.

Lastly, I'm using FCP5 to cut this.

Wow. That's a lot of questions. Thanks in advance for any help.

PK
 
Listen to Barry Green and all your questions, problems, tumors and bastard children go away.

The dudes a stud.
 
Barry,

I just need to confirm a few things if you don't mind. I just have a few people making sure we don't make a mistake before we even start shooting so it would be great if I could get a little better understanding so I can explain it to them myself.

- If we shoot in 24pa and cut in a 23.98 timeline and then output to a dvd, does it retain the film look?

- If we have to transfer to film, are filmout companies now accustomed to taking 24pa edl's? I'm not sure if that's even the right question. I'm just trying to understand the workflow from 24pa to a filmout. By all means, if there is another resource that already explains this, don't reexplain. I just haven't found a resource that is clear cut on this workflow.

Thanks for all the help.

PK
 
Or maybe, the question is how a filmout happens when something is shot on a dvx100a. Is a digital master created off the original tapes and then a filmout happens from there? I'm not sure what that process is called.
 
pkondo said:
- If we shoot in 24pa and cut in a 23.98 timeline and then output to a dvd, does it retain the film look?
Click to expand...
Yes, and that's exactly the way you'd want to do it.

- If we have to transfer to film, are filmout companies now accustomed to taking 24pa edl's? I'm not sure if that's even the right question.
Click to expand...
The filmouts I've had done we just sent a 24pA DV file, and the company also said they could accept uncompressed TGA's or TIFs.

I'm just trying to understand the workflow from 24pa to a filmout.
Click to expand...
There's nothing to worry about. Shoot 24pA. Edit on a 24p timeline. You'll have exactly what you need in order to make a 24p DVD or output for a film transfer or an HD up-rez or whatever.
 
Thanks for all the info folks! Just want to run one thing past you folks....

I am interested in achieving a film-like output so I want the look of 24pa. I have Barry's book which I think is great. I was prepared to follow the approach.

Then I read in a book - 24p - that one could shoot in 60i, and achieve the 24p look in post. The advantage of this is that you maintain the ability to stay in 60i if you want to, for whatever reason. So you get additional flexibility. In return, you have more work to do in post.

This approach interests me as while I want the flim look, I do envy the ability to have the flexibility. I am willing to do more in post to maintain the flexibility as long as I don't compromsie quality. So my question is, does this make sense? Can I shoot in 60i and use software to get to 24p and achieve the same quality as if I shot in 24p originally? I have not done this test yet but will. Curioius for other people's views though.

Thanks!

Eric
 
When you convert to 24p from 60i, you throw away up to half your vertical resolution. No way around it.

If you want 24p, shoot 24p. If for some reason you want 60i, shoot it twice.
 
Another thing to consider is the aesthetics.

Although documentary is not a narrative film, the majority of documentaries (at least the bigger ones) are/were shot on film, hence the motion of 24p is associated with documentaries in people's minds.

60i more has the look of a newscast or field report. Some recent low budget documentaries have been shot 60i but when people see it, they'll immediately think video/news.

Do what Barry says. 24pA. Edit on a 23.98 sequence.

If you're gonna output to film, perfect.

If you're going to HD, perfect. Any respectable transfer house will have the right tools and equipment. In fact, it's probably even easier for them because you have to remember, with 24pA, when you have the footage inside your computer, you are working with TWENTY FOUR CLEAN FRAMES, just like a movie (well 23.98, but let's not get so technical)

If you're gonna output to DVD, perfect again as if you have DVD studio pro, they accept 23.98 files (this is exactly what studio movie dvds do. They don't encode a 29.97 file b/c your dvd player can do a pulldown to show 24 fps on your tv correctly and b/c you save space with 23.98 so you can get better quality bitrates)

If you're gonna output to another tape format, aka you'll be screening it back on miniDV, or more likely through DigiBeta or BetaSP, no problem. You use the "Print to Video" option in your editor and hook up your miniDV camera. When it transfers the footage back to miniDV, it REINTRODUCES the advanced pulldown so your footage goes back to being encoded on 60i data. You take this miniDV tape to your transfer house and they'll dub it no problem.

So in otherwords, there is no real advantage to shoot it 24pN as you can still do everything with 24pA but you get cleaner options when transfering to film/HD/DVD (and soon HD-DVD or Blu-ray, whichever wins).
 
And what am I? Chopped liver? :)

I think I gave you all the reasons why you'd want to shoot 24pA. 24pN just means you stay on a 29.97 timeline which is more suitable for the video realm. However like I said, you could still work in the video realm with 24pA footage so there's no advantage to Normal.
 
24pA is designed to be edited easier/better on a 24p timeline.

24p Normal can be edited on 24p timelines but it's more work, with 24pA it's a breeze. Now that basically every NLE worth using has true 24pA support, there's very little reason to use 24p Normal anymore. Stick with 24p Normal if you're not editing the footage, or if you're cutting it into a 60i project. But if you're shooting 24p and want the 24p look and will therefore be editing 24p, use 24pA.
 
EA_Cru_2002 said:
Another thing to consider is the aesthetics.

Although documentary is not a narrative film, the majority of documentaries (at least the bigger ones) are/were shot on film, hence the motion of 24p is associated with documentaries in people's minds.

60i more has the look of a newscast or field report. Some recent low budget documentaries have been shot 60i but when people see it, they'll immediately think video/news.

Do what Barry says. 24pA. Edit on a 23.98 sequence.

If you're gonna output to film, perfect.

If you're going to HD, perfect. Any respectable transfer house will have the right tools and equipment. In fact, it's probably even easier for them because you have to remember, with 24pA, when you have the footage inside your computer, you are working with TWENTY FOUR CLEAN FRAMES, just like a movie (well 23.98, but let's not get so technical)

If you're gonna output to DVD, perfect again as if you have DVD studio pro, they accept 23.98 files (this is exactly what studio movie dvds do. They don't encode a 29.97 file b/c your dvd player can do a pulldown to show 24 fps on your tv correctly and b/c you save space with 23.98 so you can get better quality bitrates)

If you're gonna output to another tape format, aka you'll be screening it back on miniDV, or more likely through DigiBeta or BetaSP, no problem. You use the "Print to Video" option in your editor and hook up your miniDV camera. When it transfers the footage back to miniDV, it REINTRODUCES the advanced pulldown so your footage goes back to being encoded on 60i data. You take this miniDV tape to your transfer house and they'll dub it no problem.

So in otherwords, there is no real advantage to shoot it 24pN as you can still do everything with 24pA but you get cleaner options when transfering to film/HD/DVD (and soon HD-DVD or Blu-ray, whichever wins).
Click to expand...

But any editing program which can remove standard pulldown will give you all the same options as you'd have if you shot 24p Advanced.

I say this not to say that you shouldn't shoot 24pA if you're going to edit in 24p; you should. I say this to combat the all-too-persistent idea that 24p standard can never be edited in 24p.
 
A day late but I just wanted to say thanks to all that helped us out. Very helpful. A huge question mark has been answered.

PK
 
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