Forever War (Short Film)

[Choptop]

ya know the "right" way to make a film? Just friggin make it. If someone else doesnt like the way you did it... so what?

There is one way to learn in this biz/hobby, that is to do.

all the rest is just jibber-jabber and opinion.

 

[bosindy]

I liked it, thought it looked great, the wide shot of the trees, Wow! I also liked the idea for the story; two soldiers forced to be locked in mortal battle for eternity. i thought the camera movement was well done as well. Very good effort!

My 2 cents critically.

Why don't we see the corpse of the second soldier lying a few yards from the dead soldier at the end? It would make the premise clear that they both died in battle with each other.

The pants on the first soldier were too pristine.

The sentence at the end is awkward, you can be a bit more concise and poetic.

The change in the pace of the music is too sudden and should build more.

The CU at the end needs to have them actually struggling more. (Penn in Mystic River being retrained by the cops is an example. Can't cheat physical struggle IMO)

I leave you with what happens when experts handle live rounds. My all time favorite. http://www.break.com/top_rated/copshootsleg.html

 

[Drew599]

Bosindy, I originally did have a shot of the sniper dead in the forest. But it just didn't really work for me. I like the pace at the end and that shot throws it off. Also I wasn't exactly happy with the shot of the sniper I got.

 

[dougspice]

Christ, I never imagined there'd be so much resistance to the idea of constructive criticism. Not from you, Drew, but from these relativists. What a shame.

I'll keep an eye out for your movie next month.

 

[Rakesh Jacob]

Not that's wrong and this is write and that's the way is it is constructive how?

 

[bluegrey]

perhapes it's constructive because he's blessing us with his knowledge.

and yes there are good and bad films, but also audiences for both. The Iconic directors you mention didn't get to where they are by accepting that there is only one way of doing things. They in fact took chances..... that's how cinema develops. If everyone followed a set of rules we would be watching the same films today that people were 80 years ago. Visionaries are much more interesting than sheep. Which one would you rather be more like?

 

[dougspice]

There's a difference between inventing the lightbulb and reinventing the wheel.

Sorry if I sounded like I was "blessing you with my knowledge". I didn't come in here with the intention of sounding superior. I came in here with the intention of describing what I thought, in the hopes it might do some good. Maybe it did, maybe it didn't. Either way, you have your world view, and I have mine. There's room for both of them. Catch you guys later.

 

[Drew599]

Its amazing, this short film has created what happens with feature films. There are the people that like it and there are the people that think they know a better way to do it. I'm not saying anything bad about the people that didn't like the short. I would much rather hear what you didn't like about the short, if you give me very specific examples. I love to hear as much as the next person that people really like the stuff I do. But I can see the problems in some of the shots and in the music. So its not like I don't agree with some of the criticism I've gotten here. But if you don't like some of the shots that I've used give me examples of the shots.

I mean here's the thing about it. I don't care if everyone on here was saying that this was the worst thing they've ever seen. If I like what I've done then that's it. I'll listen to what people have to say about it and try to understand where they're coming from. But you have to make a pretty good point for me to change something. All the stuff that's being said is stuff I wasn't to thrilled with in the first place. But as I've said before that's life and there will always be another project to work on.

 

[abalex]

nice short, I'll put more effort on the cinematography though, put some filters in there, like a reversal or something, it'll make look much film like.

Good theme.

G.

 

[DavidBeier]

As for the gun battles I didn't shoot the whole thing in slow-mo. I shot the parts that move very quickly in real life that I wanted to show more of.

Your call. I felt that there was still way too much slow mo and it wasn't used all that effectivly. I don't hate slow mo. I love what good guys like John Woo can do with it. I just felt it didn't make anything more interesting here.

I do agree that the acting in the short wasn't top knotch but this was the first time for both of these people acting. So consiter that when you look at it. I think for no experience they did very well. Its all a learning process and we all have to start somewhere.

Very true. I've made a ton of crappy films trying to learn and I'm sure I'll make a bunch more. That's why I already said I assumed you'd know not to take any of this personally. Doesn't change that the acting was weak.

Thanks bluegrey for putting it into perspective for the ones that seem to have a problem with the short. We all had fun doing it and my brother and I get a laugh or two watching it. To me it has served its purpose. Now I'm going to see if there are any festivals out there that want to show it.

Drew, I think it's great to make stuff to learn and have fun but keep in mind that at film festivals you'll be competeing with people who have been doing this for a long time and as more than just "for fun." A short film can be just as magical and deep as a long one and can take just as much craft.

Okay, so here's what I was trying to do with this short so that there's no missunderstanding. I wanted to make something very quick that has guns in it. That's it. So I came up with this story in a day. I also wanted it to be as short as possible. That's the reason why the text is at the end of it. I could have gone on for a while and maybe had something in the beginning to show a criptic death of the solider or something like that. But that would have made it longer than I wanted it to be.

Ok, so you made something quick fast and limited. It was a learning experience and you had fun. That's fine. But you are on a board which has professionals on it, people who do this stuff for a living and put a hell of a lot more effort into it than what you mentioned, and are going to be competeing with the same types at film festivals. Don't be surprised if you get stringent criticism. It's great you are making films and hopefully you'll eventually be able to find one to sink your heart and sole into instead of just a few days.

Doug you make me laugh. If you think that there is only two ways to make a film, the right and the wrong way. Then you have a very narrow view of the world. Also not everyone likes the films that Scorcese, Spielberg and whoever makes. I like some of their movies but not all of them. Sometimes things turn out the exact way you want them to and other times they don't. Plus those directors, especially Spielberg have learn how to make movies that everyone loves because they try and please everyone. But in doing so you make a movie that doesn't say anything and the people are just watching stuff happen instead of projecting themselves into the story. I like films that make me think about my life and show me something that I haven't thought of before.

Just as the idea that all literature is equal has been thankfully laughed out by most bright scholars these days, the idea that all films are good and no criticism should be allowed is getting kind of old. With this, everything-is-different-and-great attitude I could paint fecal material onto celluloid and end up with something as good as The Godfather (fun fact, this was actually how Men in Black II was made).

Just because there are an infinite number of ways to do something well doesn't mean there aren't just as many to do it badly. I remember one of my favorite classes I took at film school was a directing course. The final project gave us all the same script (we could alter it) and told us to make our own version. One guy, George who was kind of flakey, came up with the weirdest thing I'd ever seen. He threw out the story entirely (it was supposed to be about a criminal brother robbing a bank his sister is gaurding and instead made it about two orphans fighting over a music box), shot it in black in white with mostly a master shot like a French new wave film, and had Korean actors speaking Korean with English subtitles. I hated it but at least he made something uniquely his own style (as screwed up as that may be) and put forth a lot of effort. Another guy, Hero, made a last minute piece of ****. He cast his best friend and girlfriend in the roles, left the script untouched, and apparently shot it in an hour. Throughout the camera was shaking and constantly zooming, looking like it was shot by a japanese tourist. We asked him why the shaking and he said he forgot to bring the tripod. We asked him about the zooming and he claimed his finger kept slipping onto it by accident and apparently he didn't feel like doing another take. There's stuff I can respect but still not like but somethings are just half-assed (I'm not implying this is the case with your film).

As for wanting films that "say something," "show something that we havn't already thought of before," and "make us think about our lives," your film doesn't even begin to do that. I think that's why more than a few people have been a bit weary of it. You have what is essentially a quick little action excercise (once again, I've made my share too), but, with your twist ending and heavy handed text, seem to be trying to pass it off as something profound or deep which is just isn't. Sorry. (and yes, I'm aware this is just my opinion and assume you are too).

Doug, now I know why you feel the way you do about my short. You came out of USC. I'm not trying to say that all people that come out of there are a certain way. But the ones that I've run into seem to think they know everything about making film and the right way to do it. Maybe I've just had bad run-ins.

What an INCREDIBLY immature thing to say. "You don't like my movie because people from USC are stupid!" I think we can do without childish generalizations can't we?

Also again, this was just something I threw together. I went out there with no storyboards and we changed things on the fly. That whole knife throw sequence was added in at the last minute. I plan on the next thing to be much better. Next month is when I'm planning on shooting it around Burbank in the middle of the night.

And I hope you plan the next one better. Keep in mind that constant bad planning makes for bad directors and the "I just threw this together" excuse only goes so far. I've know so many people who know one will work with because they just dick around with your movies. Not saying that this is what you do (never been on your set) but it is a danger. We're always learning but learning involves eventually doing things better.

Its amazing, this short film has created what happens with feature films. There are the people that like it and there are the people that think they know a better way to do it. I'm not saying anything bad about the people that didn't like the short. I would much rather hear what you didn't like about the short, if you give me very specific examples. I love to hear as much as the next person that people really like the stuff I do. But I can see the problems in some of the shots and in the music. So its not like I don't agree with some of the criticism I've gotten here. But if you don't like some of the shots that I've used give me examples of the shots.

I think people have given you specific examples of stuff and considering you didn't story board this or apparently do much pre-production I find it a bit odd that you want people to be more detailed in their criticism of your work then you apparently were making it. For that matter, considering your comment to Doug, I don't think you are as open to criticism as you seem to think you are. Another thing that would drive me nuts about some people I knew in film school (usually the same ones who could never get their act together and work in a professional manner) is that they would ask for criticism and then get defensive when someone didn't like something.

 

[DavidBeier]

The guy wrote it in one day, shot it two for something to do.

Sorry, I hate to get off on a rant here but this is such a pathetic excuse. There are people who spend months planning and shooting short films. I'm one of them and I know tons more. I've gotten tired of seeing people in film school who make shitty movie after shitty movie and then say, "well, I didn't really put any effort into this one." If that's the case then why the **** are they wasting our time? Not neccesarily saying that such attitudes apply to this film (I think it's great to make short stuff to hone your technique) but I had to rant.

The awesome thing about filmmaking is there is no wrong or right way of doing things and nothing ever plays the same way to everyone. Saying things like the music was over done or there shouldn't have been text at the end is just silly because that's your opinion, not the way it is. It was a five minute action short - should he have spent more time getting his point across so he didn't need the text at the end? If you even answer that question you're somehow presuming that you know, without a doubt, what the best way to make a film is. Remember eveything is subjective and there's an audience for everything. Coming in and saying this should've been done that way, or that should've been done this way is very brazen and somehow assumes that you have all the answers. Ok, I'll get off my soapbox now.

Do get off the soapbox and never get back on. The silly, "it's all opinion" claim pretty much just means one can't handle criticism. You're on a discussion board and people are going to be discussing things. We don't need to be told 99.9% of the stuff we are saying on this thread is opinion and I assume that Drew is aware of that as well. WE KNOW! HE KNOWS! We're sharing our opinion of his stuff just as you just shared yours. We didn't whine at you for saying you liked it so don't whine at us if we don't.

Thank GOD for all the Film Nazis that tell us how to properly make films...We would be lost without you guys:dankk2:

Purely playing devil's advocate:

Thank GOD for all the Film Flakes that play with a camera for ten minutes on a project they just threw together...You guys make the best movies ever! :dankk2:

 

[bluegrey]

David- I read your last two posts. I like the fact that you get so worked up over this. I hope you feel better now that you've gotten that all out.

I guess I just didn't take the film as seriously as some people here. Arguing over the internet is ridiculous. I'm sure you and doug are both interesting people to converse with in real life. As I have no vested interest in this I'm gonna move on. In all seriousness I look forward to your criticism of my work in the future I'm sure it will help me gain perspective and improve. Nick.

 

[Drew599]

David, I'm sorry if you felt this was a short film that you should have taken seriously and taken away some kind of profound life lesson from. Really, I didn't mean to make it that way. Or I didn't mean to make it the way I did so you could interpret it that way. Just take a deep breath.............okay now let that out nice and slow.

I understand your whole thing about saying over and over again about how people just slap stuff together and it looking crappy and them say that's the excuse why it looked that way. I'm not hiding behind something like that. I made this to have fun with it and learn something about action. I've never shot a short with this level of action in it and it was a fun learning experience.

Also for the record I usually storyboard all of my shorts out. The next one I'm doing I went and took pictures of every possible angle that I would want and edited them together into a pre-short with all the cuts I want to make and stuff like that. I just like to change things up a little and do something that has no hard plan because I truly believe that you can learn a lot doing that. Like how to think on your feet and how to make a shot work if your seeing problems with one coming up or one your shooting at the moment.

I've seen plenty of shorts that have gotten into film festivals that were, in my opinion, some of the worst things I've seen. Plus even more stuff that was just okay. I just don't understand why you try to make some kind of point that because I do this for fun I have less of a chance to get into a festival as opposed to someone that does this for a living. Also I don't know if there are people that make short films for a "living". Commercials yes, which can be a form of short film I guess if you really wanted to make a point. But of course those people have a budget and a whole crew working for them. I could have the same thing if I wanted to but I find it a much better environment to have it low-key...at least for right now.

Believe it or not I listen to what everyone has to say about the stuff I do. I hear nothing short of fantastic things about my timelapse stuff. When I read comments about the shorts I do and about how some people didn't like them. I try and understand why they don't like it. On this project I can only come up with that people need to just take a breather and realize that this is for fun. I'm not finding the cure for cancer through the things I do on these shorts and neither are you. So take it easy.

 

[Justin Kuhn]

I'm sure any reasonible person will agree with such a message but that doesn't excuse insanely heavy-handed moralizing.

I have to agree. Being preached directly to always annoys me as an audience member. I'd rather extract the "message" of the film myself, from the story. Story is always the most important thing. But at the same time I understand how fun it is to just go shoot something, just for the joy of capturing images. Speaking just for myself, I often find myself saying, "I know it's ridiculous, it was just for fun," and wishing I'd written a script and drafted it a few times.

 

[Rakesh Jacob]

Thank God I went to Med School and didn't have to put up with you D!CKS in film school!

 

[Fugitive]

Whoa! lets relax people. If Drew wants to make a short-and-quick movie to test something out, or/and have fun, thats fine. His movie, his style, his choice.

That said, once you post something on a "public" forum, you have opened it for (constructive) criticism. There is absolutely nothing wrong in that. I think we ought to learn from what others have to say.

Ofcourse there "is" a general consensus on what good movie-making is and what bad movie-making is, just like there is a consensus on what a good movie is and what a bad movie is. Thats why you have the IMDB top 100 (or 250). To ignore deliberately how good movies are made just because you think its not important (rather than for stylistic purposes) is plain silly.

 

[presario]

I think the visuals were great Drew. Good job.

Just take from this board the things that will make you a better filmmaker and don't let the other things people say get you down. It always hurts to get criticism, even after my 22nd short film. But it's just the nature of our craft.

Keep up the good work Drew. BTW, I'm a huge fan or your timelapse stuff.

 

[bosindy]

How a man offers criticism can reveal as much about him as it does the object of his commentary.

 

[dogcat]

Holy smackeral! Gotta hand it to you Drew, it seams like everything you posts starts an uproar, good or bad. I think through your diverse output, people are starting to get a better feel for your personality. I admit it is easy to make false assumptions about you through your' timelapse stuff (which isn't even hvx material) I do think your strengh lies in your photographic eye, I was enjoying the short just based on the nature shots and the sound track. I think there is an underlying tension in your work, and it's good to see you trying to get it out. There is always a great danger when making shorts because of the nature of the medium. There is not a lot of investment when all it takes is a dvx100 to make things look great. That's why I like the hvx forum, people seem to be a little more mature, and take their investment a little more serious. That being said, i commend your ballsy effort, I'm sure you have learnt quit a bit through all the critisism. 8 pages of replies is worth an award in itself. Can't wait to see the next one after all this barage. Cheers!

 

[Drew599]

Believe it or not I like to hear comments about my stuff, good or bad. I hear all the time about how much people like my timelapse stuff and nothing bad about it. Now that I have gotten both positve and negative feedback from people on this short its kind of a nice change of pace.

Dogcat, I'm a little interested on how you pictured me before this and then after. If you saw me on the street you would just think I'm some guy that looks like a skater. But if you talked with me you would find I have very strong opinions about all kind of things. Sometimes people think I go a little too far in the things I say but I feel that's really the only way to get your point across. Your right I do have a lot of underlying tension in my writing and in my life. Writing helps me better understand some of the things within me. Please don't take this short as a window into my soul or something like that as it was something made more for my entertainment. But you can take the text at the end how ever you want. It of course says something abiut me because I'm the one who typed it.

Once the next short is done it will make its way here. Or should I say the next two I'm planning on doing here in the next couple months.