Vegas and DVCPRO HD

lets be CLEAR .. everybody has their own unique MFX type files ..
sony , panasonic , avid and whom ever else there is have their own way of doing MFX files...
 
Well, I buckled and went with Premiere. After a bit more searching, I found that they will be supporting HVX-200 .mxf this fall, which I can deal with that.
 
Panasonic waiting around for every NLE maker to reinvent the wheel = LAME.

Sony's bastardization of MXF is inexcusable if true, but it's not their job to write Panasonic's codec for them.

Gee, I think I'll build a printer and try to sell it with no drivers for Windows.
 
^
Not really a fair assesment. MXFs have been around for a while and were an attempt to create a more unified format that everyone would use. Avid got on board a while ago (though they still need to make P2 support a bit more convenient) and the HVX200 added adds XML files so that FCP can convert them to quicktime untill the eventually support MXF.

Sony seems to have issues playing nice with others. Look at Betamax. Look at what they're trying to do with Blue Ray. The fact that their cameras are constnatly in competition with Pansonics is probably a pretty good indication of why they don't want to work to make Vegas more HVX compatible. It's a shame when business polotics screw over the consumer.
 
Hey JWinter, posting someone else's private e-mail to you is a major breach of netiquette. I soft-deleted that post. If you want to report the gist of it, such as "DSE told me that they have never supported DVCPRO-anything before, and they're not going to do so for this product either, but the Serious Magic decoder seems to be a great option" or something like that, that'd be okay. But reposting his private e-mail to you word-for-word isn't really kosher; it's a violation of his privacy in that he sent the message to you, not to the world...
 
Hi Barry

it was a forum post, but you are right...guess i should have referenced the post with a link...sorry about that
 
DOH! Sorry -- if it was a forum post then that means he's made it public himself, not like a private e-mail, so I shouldn't have jumped the gun!
 
Serious Magic have released what looks to be a very usable HVX solution for most NLEs that don't directly support it (including Vegas).


DVCProHD Decoder
http://seriousmagic.com/products/dvcPro/index.cfm

It comes with a converter to convert the MXF files from the P2 cards to AVI/MOV with no transcoding (so it's quick and native).

It only states that it is a decoder, so whether encoding a final edit to DVCProHD is possible remains unclear (to me at least).
 
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Vegas will have another test coming soon. RED. Will they step up and support the camera thats going to crush the 900?

The answer is.....
 
Well, thanks to Redcine, you'll be able to edit footage shot with the RED in Vegas no problem. However, conforming the edit to a HD codec will depend on what formats Vegas can ingest at that point.

I agree tho, it'll be a while before compatibility with the RED is important. However, you gotta admit, the RED will be a MAJOR competitor to Sony's offerings, so getting them to support the RED may be difficult.
 
Gopher_Greene said:
The answer is.....
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Okay, the more I think about it, the more I understand it from their perspective.

We gripe about no DVCPRO-HD support, and then we're doubly insulted because they add "export to a Playstation Portable" as a feature while ignoring the HVX, right?

Well, let's look at it from their perspective -- what other NLE is going to support any manner of export to a PSP? PSP is a Sony product, somebody's gotta support it, right? So it's Sony's editor that supports it. What about ATRAC -- does any editor support ATRAC? Probably not, I don't know, but it's a Sony product, so they kind of have to make their editor work with it, right?

So in short -- I sincerely doubt we'll see any support added for any other manufacturer's gear so long as their developers' resources could be spent somehow supporting a Sony product. Sony formats and Sony products will always come first so long as Sony owns Vegas. And rightly so, I guess, as much as it pains me to admit it. I mean, what if you were intending to author for yet another (failed) Sony proprietary format, UMD -- where would you go? What would you do? Surely you'd expect that at least Sony's own editor would support Sony's own product, right?

And so that is how it appears it will be. Vegas is no longer what it was, it is now an owned, branded product. I suspect that if someone was using Sony equipment, they will find fantastic support for their formats in Sony Vegas software. And if someone's using a format from someone other than Sony, they can probably expect that there won't be much effort expended on Vegas' part to support it. Case in point, MXF -- Grass Valley, Panasonic, Avid, Leitch, lots of companies support Op-Atom MXF. Sony creates their own proprietary type, Op-1A (or Op-A1, don't really care to remember which it is). So which version does Vegas support? Yep, you got it -- they expended the effort to support Sony's proprietary version, and do not in any way support the version used by everyone else. I think that's a pretty good indicator of the way things are going, and it's why I don't hold much hope for Vegas outside of the Sony "Like No Other" umbrella. If I was using XDCAM-HD, I'd probably be very happy with Vegas' support. But I question whether Vegas will even have support for AVC-Intra. You think they're going to take time to develop software support for RED? Not likely! A company that wasn't even going to allow Red footage to be played on their projector is not going to spend development effort to support their competitor's product.

Seriously, think about it from Sony Corporate's perspective. They go to the Madison engineers and say "what are you working on?" Madison says "well, we've got two potential projects. 1) we can implement DVCPRO-HD support for the HVX200, or 2) we could spend that time and effort speeding up our HDV decoder so we get realtime HDV playback." Which answer do you expect Sony Corporate to encourage them to pursue? And I bet it will always be this way -- if they could spend time developing support for new formats that don't benefit Sony product, or they could spend that same time developing support that does benefit Sony product, which way do you expect them to go?

So it's a sad realization, but if you're planning on using products other than Sony in the future, Vegas may not be the editor of choice anymore. I know most HVX users have adopted FCP, and those of us on the PC seem to be enjoying our EDIUS; I've quit asking Sony for DVCPRO-HD support because I just don't think it'll ever happen. It's sad, but continuing to knock on that door when they're clearly not going to answer it is also sad. Time to move on.
 
DavidBeier said:
Not really a fair assesment. MXFs have been around for a while and were an attempt to create a more unified format that everyone would use.

...

Sony seems to have issues playing nice with others.
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Hi David. Yes, MXF seems to be a good idea, and like I said, if Sony tries to screw up that standard then they should be condemned. But MXF isn't a codec; it's just a file format. Expecting every NLE manufacturer to write its own version of a codec to support new hardware is unreasonable.

If a company expects consumers to use its hardware, it needs to deliver a driver with it. And in the case of digital video cameras, the most important part of that driver is a codec. Why have many companies expending resources redundantly, when with one effort Panasonic can render its cameras compatible with almost every NLE? This new file converter and codec should not have had to come from a third party.

So I don't see why the comparison with printers and their drivers is unfair.
 
Very good points, and logical at that, of course, Barry. However, one must ask, is that really the best business plan, or even a good one? If Sony elected not to support Red, is that going to stop anyone from buying a Red Camera? Did lack of DVCPro support stop anyone from buying the HVX? Personally, I don't think so, and Sony should recognize that their editing suite is a seperate entity from their other product lines... to an extent. Yes, I think it is a smart and wise decision to support things like psp, especially when no one else will. That should be icing on the cake.
If Sony supported my 6 or 18 thousand dollar camera with their NLE I would of course not only use Vegas, but might then also be tempted to perhaps buy a psp, and have the option to output samples, etc to it. In other words, broader support could mean increased sales for Sony. If their NLE continued the direction that Sonic Foundry took it to begin with and the way Edius is going, and then added these extra "proprietary", but popular goodies like PSP, then they are gold. I just don't see how not supporting other popular formats is going to help Sony's camera sales or their NLE sales or any of their sales. I doubt there is a single person who was thinking about the hvx and decided to go with an hdv camera instead because Sony would support the hdv format and not the op atom. And if there was, well that person probably wasn't really considering the hvx that seriously to begin with, or is a die hard sony person (not that there is anything wrong with that :) ). I have read examples of people ditching sony because of a lack of support. I have not read the other.
Jason
 
Yes Barry you are as always correct! Unfortunatly it is so painful because Vegas was such an intuitive format and a pleasure to work in. However I have made the transition to Avid, it supports nearly everything that is common in the market. However I do miss the easy workflow of Vegas, I guess it's just hard to let go of the hope.
 
Ramjet1979 said:
However, one must ask, is that really the best business plan, or even a good one?
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The thing is, that is not for us to decide. If Sony feels that they're getting what they wanted when they bought Vegas, then that's the only decision that matters.

Obviously many of us feel that Vegas had some major momentum and was rapidly gaining market share and if it continued on that development path I do think it would have had an incredible future. But the evidence seems to be indicating that Sony has different plans. And Since Sony bought the company, it's "their way or the highway." Whether we end consumers agree with the decision is, largely, not relevant. They now have a product that supports their formats. And they have a product they can give away free with the Z1. I guess that's what they wanted. Not what we wanted, but what they wanted, and we have to accept that.

Did lack of DVCPro support stop anyone from buying the HVX?
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Not that I know of, but it certainly appears to have been a good thing for Apple and Canopus because HVX buyers seem to be concentrated on those two products (with some Avid thrown in) whereas among DVX buyers it was more like 33% Vegas, 33% FCP, 33% Premiere.

If their NLE continued the direction that Sonic Foundry took it to begin with and the way Edius is going, and then added these extra "proprietary", but popular goodies like PSP, then they are gold. I just don't see how not supporting other popular formats is going to help Sony's camera sales or their NLE sales or any of their sales.
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You're preaching to the choir; I held out hope for a long, long time because I thought that was the path that was best for everyone. I arranged phone calls and meetings, I even looked into developing my own DVCPRO-HD codec (went so far as to get bids from a few different companies). On that note I'm glad I didn't do it, because we're relatively awash with them now, between Raylight and Cineform and Serious Magic, but still... I tried hard to get them on the same page.

There has to come a point where you realize it just ain't gonna happen. Sony and Panasonic do not like each other, and I doubt we'll see a Panasonic camera recording to XDCAM discs any time soon, just like I doubt we'll see a Sony editing program supporting DVCPRO-HD. It just ain't gonna happen.
 
Barry_Green said:
You're preaching to the choir
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I know, you're right. I don't expect them to support it. Just a personal opinion about their business plan.... Oh, well. I guess "I'm just gonna go home and bite my pillow, is what I'm gonna do".
And now with the release of Vegas 7, it is oficially official that dvcpro will not have support. And with that, I think it's time that I close this thread....
Oh, wait, I can't do that.... just kidding.
I vote for a dvxuser NLE. GreenLand Broadcast 0.1 baby
Thanks,
Jason
 
With all the workarounds -- RayLight, Serious Magic, etc. -- it's also probably not worth Sony's time. It's a dead issue.
 
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