Out of curiosity, why can't others make P2 cards?

[Abaddon]

"ahh, pessimism, gotta love it"
Yeah. And a complete contempt for engineering R and D.
I would like my jet pack. I KNOW they can make em, man. Those corporate fat cats are just hosing us man!
I never understand these threads. "Out of curiousity", how come I can embrace this technology and see all the adavntages while others want to just throw rocks and complain about the way it SHOULD be.
Maybe P2 will lose out in the end. All I know is that as long as I have my current laptop and camera, I can churn out stuff that looks great, is easy to capture and edit, and best of all, is making me money NOW!

I'm glad it works for you, but not all of us can lug around a laptop. We need to be able to grab the camera and shoot things easily. If I'm shooting a concert, hand-held, I can't be dealing with laptops, drives, or anything else of the kind. I need to move around a lot and shoot for long periods of time. Panasonic is fully capable of increasing the memory and lowering their prices. They just choose not to, and that's their right. So maybe when this changes, I'll buy the camera and P2 cards.

 

[bbalser]

I shoot with an FS-100 and love it. Long battery life, long recording times, very nice solution.

 

[Barry_Green]

If I'm shooting a concert, hand-held, I can't be dealing with laptops, drives, or anything else of the kind.

Then obviously the system doesn't work for you. Wait for AVC-HD, or go with HDV if you want. There are other choices. Or do as BenB says and get a FireStore or a CitiDisk or the CinePorter or who knows what other options will come down the road...

What I get riled up about is how the concept of "hmm, this doesn't work for my needs" turns into "what a bunch of scam artist ripoff thieving corporate buttmunchers. Why don't they just build exactly what I want, right now, and make it cheap, and if they don't it's because they're an evil greedy corporation and there's no other reason."

The two things are not related.

One could say "hmm, that Dodge Viper is a pretty nice car, but it's so ridiculously overpriced, why don't they make the viper for $5000. How much does it cost to make a car anyway? How stupid do they think we are?"

That kind of talk is silly, and counterproductive.

If you look at the system and determine that it doesn't meet your needs, then that's all there is to it, right? So move on. Look at something else. But to somehow imply that the system itself is fundamentally flawed, when there are guys out there making tens of thousands of dollars with their gear right now, is simply not rational.

The system works. Is it more appropriate for guys with a dedicated laptop and a dedicated P2 manager? Heck yes. But here's the thing you're not factoring in: we've been able to RAISE OUR RATES because of the product we're delivering. I paid my whole kit off the first job I did with it. It's paid itself off completely, three times over, and I've been traveling so much I haven't even gone looking for a production job in the three months since I moved so it could probably have paid itself off four or five times over if I had.

And there are plenty of guys on the forum here who will tell you the same thing.

Is the HVX the ideal camera for someone who wants to run around shooting tape? Obviously not. But it's getting used on big-buck productions, productions that can easily afford to have the proper gear and support staff in place. I've personally worked on two HVX-only productions with budgets north of $400,000 each. Ask Evin Grant about the scope and type of productions he's working on with it. Go look at the "who's using the HVX" thread to see the type of productions that it's being used for. It's very appropriate for some types of productions, and the current limited card capacity makes it not so appropriate for others today. But what about when the 128gb cards are out, and you can have 10 hours of footage in-camera in one load with no card swapping at all? All of a sudden it's tape that becomes the limited format.

So look -- decide if it works for you, and if it does, great, join the family. If it doesn't work for you, move on to something else that does. There are lots of other products on the market, surely one of them will do what you need.

 

[Abaddon]

Then obviously the system doesn't work for you. Wait for AVC-HD, or go with HDV if you want. There are other choices. Or do as BenB says and get a FireStore or a CitiDisk or the CinePorter or who knows what other options will come down the road...

What I get riled up about is how the concept of "hmm, this doesn't work for my needs" turns into "what a bunch of scam artist ripoff thieving corporate buttmunchers. Why don't they just build exactly what I want, right now, and make it cheap, and if they don't it's because they're an evil greedy corporation and there's no other reason."

The two things are not related.

One could say "hmm, that Dodge Viper is a pretty nice car, but it's so ridiculously overpriced, why don't they make the viper for $5000. How much does it cost to make a car anyway? How stupid do they think we are?"

That kind of talk is silly, and counterproductive.

If you look at the system and determine that it doesn't meet your needs, then that's all there is to it, right? So move on. Look at something else. But to somehow imply that the system itself is fundamentally flawed, when there are guys out there making tens of thousands of dollars with their gear right now, is simply not rational.

The system works. Is it more appropriate for guys with a dedicated laptop and a dedicated P2 manager? Heck yes. But here's the thing you're not factoring in: we've been able to RAISE OUR RATES because of the product we're delivering. I paid my whole kit off the first job I did with it. It's paid itself off completely, three times over, and I've been traveling so much I haven't even gone looking for a production job in the three months since I moved so it could probably have paid itself off four or five times over if I had.

And there are plenty of guys on the forum here who will tell you the same thing.

Is the HVX the ideal camera for someone who wants to run around shooting tape? Obviously not. But it's getting used on big-buck productions, productions that can easily afford to have the proper gear and support staff in place. I've personally worked on two HVX-only productions with budgets north of $400,000 each. Ask Evin Grant about the scope and type of productions he's working on with it. Go look at the "who's using the HVX" thread to see the type of productions that it's being used for. It's very appropriate for some types of productions, and the current limited card capacity makes it not so appropriate for others today. But what about when the 128gb cards are out, and you can have 10 hours of footage in-camera in one load with no card swapping at all? All of a sudden it's tape that becomes the limited format.

So look -- decide if it works for you, and if it does, great, join the family. If it doesn't work for you, move on to something else that does. There are lots of other products on the market, surely one of them will do what you need.

My point is that the HVX could be the camera for me and MANY other people if there were a better deal with the cards. And I do honestly believe it's within Panasonic's ability to make bigger cards and at lower cost. Prove me wrong on this if you can.

You can make me out to be a corporation-hating bastard if you like, but that's not what I am. If a company wants to sell paper clips for $50 a piece, then more power to them, I just won't buy them until the price works for me. I totally support a capitalist system, but let's be realistic. We know how business is.

So let me just ask you these two questions, and if you don't know the answer, please give an educated guess:

1. What is the highest number of gigs Panasonic is capable of producing for P2 TODAY?
2. How much does it cost to produce a 4GB and 8GB card?

 

[dregenthal]

me thinks it time to close this thread.

 

[Abaddon]

me thinks it time to close this thread.

I would just like my last two questions answered.

 

[bosindy]

1. What is the highest number of gigs Panasonic is capable of producing for P2 TODAY?
2. How much does it cost to produce a 4GB and 8GB card?

1) 8G

2) less than $650 and less than $1250 respectively.

At the end of the year, the answer to #1 will be 16G.

Any other answer would have to go into complex formulas for cost and technology yield that no one outside of panasonic can answer. I will say that cost gets misrepresented and misunderstood quite a bit on this site. Actual manufacturing and raw materials is just a fraction of cost. Should Panasonic recoup their R&D? What is their allocated SG&A? an on and on ....

Also, it's more than can Panasonic make a 128G card, for instance, today.? If panasonic could make a 128G card, could they mass manufacture it today? If they could mass manufacture it, could they provide it at a price point that made sense for an HVX user today? ($10k card for a $5300 camera) I think Barry is on the money when he said, if they could, they would, bc Panasonic would dominate and all the tape arguments would go the way of the hoola hoop.

 

[Abaddon]

1) 8G

2) less than $650 and less than $1250 respectively.

At the end of the year, the answer to #1 will be 16G.

Any other answer would have to go into complex formulas for cost and technology yield that no one outside of panasonic can answer. I will say that cost gets misrepresented and misunderstood quite a bit on this site. Actual manufacturing and raw materials is just a fraction of cost. Should Panasonic recoup their R&D? What is their allocated SG&A? an on and on ....

Also, it's more than can Panasonic make a 128G card, for instance, today.? If panasonic could make a 128G card, could they mass manufacture it today? If they could mass manufacture it, could they provide it at a price point that made sense for an HVX user today? ($10k card for a $5300 camera) I think Barry is on the money when he said, if they could, they would, bc Panasonic would dominate and all the tape arguments would go the way of the hoola hoop.

First off, do you know for a fact that Panasonic does not have the capability of making cards with more gigs right now? Are you certain they can't yet make a 16GB card, a 32GB card, a 64GB card, etc.?

Since we don't know what it costs Panasonic to make P2 cards, it's difficult to really get into this discussion fairly. All I can really do is speculate. But let's say Panasonic is capable of making a 128GB card at a fair price. Do you think they would release it now? I don't think so. They stand to make much more money year after year by slowly increasing the memory, thereby keeping the customers coming back again and again cuz they need more card space.

I would love to know what it costs to make a P2 card, and to know how it could cost so much more to make an 8GB card than a 4GB. What exactly justifies the doubling of the price?

Do P2 cards really cost a lot to produce or is Panasonic just over charging to make a bigger profit? That's what I'm curious about.

 

[bbalser]

Abaddon,
Since you made the challange, why don't YOU "prove" Panasonic is rippig us all off? You are not contributing anything of value with this thread. We are here to help each other, not complain about how empty your life may feel. Show us the factual evidence to back up your argument.

Barry,
AMEN BROTHER! I retired from the IT field, and most people have no idea how small the margins are on electronics and computers.

Can we get back to discussions that add value to our careers? I use an HVX200 with FS-100 and love it, no laptop, nothing, shoot handheld in with swamps every week, works great. So, anyone need any help with actually using this camera 99% of us here are very happy with?

 

[bbalser]

Do P2 cards really cost a lot to produce or is Panasonic just over charging to make a bigger profit? That's what I'm curious about.

They really do cost that much to make in the small quantity they're making them. Besides, many places have been using the P2 technology for 4 years now, and still like it.