Out of curiosity, why can't others make P2 cards?

[Abaddon]

Everybody wins with competition. So start nagging the competing companies to make some product.


Hmm... yeah... kind of like a $1750 4GB P2 card now going for $550. Or a $2750 8GB card now going for $1200, less than 9 months later...

(i.e., that was the whole POINT of going with SD cards as the basis for P2 cards)


Again, a fundamental misunderstanding. Who's been buying more and more? I've had my camera and cards longer than anyone, and I'm still running off my same two original 4GB cards. P2 isn't something you need to upgrade continuously. You buy what works and you work with it. If what's new costs too much, you don't buy it.

The cards don't come with "a little more memory", they double in size. First there was a 2gb. Then there was a 4. Now there's an 8. And a few months from now there will be a 16. Next year there'll be a 32. That's how it works. They have to base it on the underlying SD card technology. 4GB SD cards have only now come on the market, so now Panasonic can build 16GB P2 cards. It hasn't been possible before now because the 4GB SD card didn't exist yet.


Is anyone doing that? Is there anyone on this forum who has upgraded their 4gb cards to 8gb's? I don't know of anyone. I know people who have bought 8gb's instead of 4gb's, but I haven't heard of anyone who sold their 4gb's to "upgrade" to 8gb's, or of anyone who's planning on selling their 4's or 8's to "upgrade" to a 16gb.

It's all fun and games to play "conspiracy theory" but come on... do you guys realize how few cards they sell? P2 cards are not now, nor will they ever be, a high-volume item. Two, maybe three cards per camera is all they'll ever likely average. People keep wanting to say "it's a 'razors and blades' business model" but the observable evidence shows that that's completely inaccurate. Two, maybe three cards EVER. That's what people are buying, that's what they're working with, and there's no NEED to upgrade or trade in or keep buying more and more. Maybe someday when 4gb cards cost $30 each, maybe then people will own a dozen of 'em, but I'm going on 9 months of ownership with just two 4gb cards and I don't feel any compelling need to upgrade...

C'mon dude.

You really think companies like Panasonic aren't able to make cards with MUCH more memory right now? And are you telling me you won't eventually buy new P2 cards with more gigs when they're released?

Look at it this way. If Panasonic were to release 32GB cards right now, HVX users would buy a card or two and probably be done for as long as they own their cameras, or at least for quite a while. That's bad business for Panasonic. But if they increase the gigs every year, a lot of people will keep buying again and again because they all want cards that hold more footage. Who's gonna stick to a 4GB card when there's a 16GB in the market?

It's like film companies releasing 5 versions of the same friggin movie on DVD. Special edition, platinum edition, unrated edition, **** you in the ass edition, etc. They could release one DVD with absolutely everything a fan could want right off the bat, but no. By continuing to release bigger versions all the time, they keep people buying, even the people who already own previous versions.

I see the memory card business as being the same game. Could I be wrong? Sure. But it all looks pretty damn suspicious to me.

 

[mrWr0ng]

I don't really have a problem with what Panasonic's doing here. How much money did they put into R&D on the camera and the cards? They've released a brand new product with no previous backing, they've spent years designing the cards, the camera, putting together a roadmap, figuring out how the cards will be made, acquiring the SD cards and the RAID setup to build the P2 cards, all of that costs money.

They're not just recouping the cost of building the cards, they're recouping the cost of the research and design to bring you the camera and the cards. Your buying a P2 card pays part of Jan's salary, so she can be on this forum as an official Panasonic representative and answer questions about the camera. It pays for Panasonic offering Barry's book to every US-based customer who bought the HVX (still waiting on mine btw ), so it's not like they're trying to steal every dollar out of your wallet.

Every other camera company (Sony, JVC, Canon) released HDV cameras at the prosumer level. Panasonic is the only company (AFAIK) that has released a true HD camera at the prosumer level, which also makes use of solid state recording. That is a HUGE gamble - while other companies can upgrade the equipment in their existing cameras to be HDV capable, Panasonic took a huge risk with the HVX200, and the profit they make from selling you overpriced P2 cards goes to paying off the R&D on the cards and camera, and paying off this venture so that Panasonic will be likely to take a risk and offer something better to the consumer again in the future.

 

[DavidBeier]

C'mon dude.

You really think companies like Panasonic aren't able to make cards with MUCH more memory right now? And are you telling me you won't eventually buy new P2 cards with more gigs when they're released?

In general I think I'd trust Barry over anyone else on the board when it comes to stuff like this. His written the textbooks and Pansonic's major cameras, makes it his business to know their business practices, is privy for more information than you and I will ever be, and is pretty much the expert on a lot of this stuff.

I don't think Pansonic is overcharging us for these things and I don't blame them for the price. Like Barry said with such a small market things are gonna cost a lot more. That's the way with specialized stuff. I am rather ticked off that they aren't including a P2 slot on their new HDX900 though since that'll mean less P2 users and thus higher prices. That said, the point of this topic was not about them as other companies who are refusing to make P2 type cards from apparent lack of interest.

Who's gonna stick to a 4GB card when there's a 16GB in the market?

I'm planning to stick to a 4 gig card now that there's a 8 on the market. I'm about to buy another P2 and I'm going with a 4 gig. You can get an 8 gig for the price of 2 4s but it doesn't make that much difference to me and I'd rather go with a 4 gig since they are easier to archive to DVD. As long as users are paying rough the same per gig, 4 gigs will never go out of value since it's really not that big a deal to swap cards. It's not like tape where it means you have to stop recording since stuff can be captured accross two cards. Perhaps if it becomes signifigantly cheaper to get a 16 gig over 4 4 gigs then I might grab one but I'll still use my 4 gigers. You get ALOT more out of your space with instant clip access and quick deletion. I guess you really have to experience the workflow before you understand.

 

[Barry_Green]

You really think companies like Panasonic aren't able to make cards with MUCH more memory right now?

Let's look at it from another angle. Do you think companies like Panasonic really enjoy it when prospective customers whine "WHAT?!?!?! 4 minutes of recording time?!?!??! ARE YOU JOKING?!?!??!"

I'm sure they really enjoy that particular dialogue.

Let me put it this way: if P2 cards were 32gb right now, and $100 each, would anyone, anywhere, at all, buy anything OTHER than this? Not a chance in hades. Once they see the workflow nobody would shoot tape ever again.

So do you think Panasonic is really trying to keep themselves from dominating the camcorder world? Do you think they went to Sony and Canon and JVC and said "tell you what guys, we have the capability and the technology to absolutely bury you. We could put you out of business today. But instead, we're such nice guys that we'll leave you plenty of marketshare, and instead we'll just screw the customer as hard as we can."

Do you really think that's the business model at work here?

It would be profoundly stupid of Panasonic to try to make a "killing" on the cards. They need as many people as possible to buy into the P2 system -- they're very committed to going absolutely tapeless and they want everyone to buy into this idea. And they very well know that nobody is going to buy lots of cards. The plan is for people to have two to three cards, max. That's it. That's all they need. And everyone knows it.

And are you telling me you won't eventually buy new P2 cards with more gigs when they're released?

Depends on how big they are, what they cost, and what the need is. Why don't you run a poll here to find out how many of us who own 4gb cards dumped 'em and upgraded to 8gb's the minute they became available? I'll bet the number is none, or close to it. And how many of us who have 4gb's intend to dump 'em and buy new 16gb's when those come out? A few, I'm sure, as 16gb is a significant workflow improvement. But not all. I think a lot of us would upgrade when the 32's come out. With two 32's you're talking about an hour of 1080p footage in-camera at once, and that's a big step up, worth spending the dough on for some of us.

If Panasonic were to release 32GB cards right now, HVX users would buy a card or two and probably be done for as long as they own their cameras, or at least for quite a while.

Um, that's what people are doing already. Except I'm doing it with two 4's, and others are doing it with two 8's. For my usage, I simply don't need more. And if I really did need something else for a specific job, I could just rent it.

That's bad business for Panasonic.

Your opinion. But for the people at Panasonic who make the business plan, they seem pretty happy with it.

Who's gonna stick to a 4GB card when there's a 16GB in the market?

Those of us who have paid for and amortized our 4GB cards, and who don't need more. You can do an awful lot with 4GB cards.

Look, I'm speaking as an OWNER, not as some theoretical armchair quarterback second-guesser type of guy. I've got the system. I'm using it. And I'm telling you, two 4gb's is all you NEED to do any sort of dramatic narrative production -- films, music videos, TV commercials, things like that.

As larger cards come out it'll open up more types of productions. Right now I wouldn't want to shoot an hourlong concert on two 4gb cards, no. Two 16gb's would give 80 minutes of 720/24pN in-camera, so yes that now becomes practical. Or weddings or whatever. And for those who want to do those types of jobs, they'll have their chance, supposedly by the end of this year.

But that doesn't mean I have "card size lust" or that for some reason I'll find my 4gb's inadequate just because something larger is out.

It's like film companies releasing 5 versions of the same friggin movie on DVD. Special edition, platinum edition, unrated edition, etc. They could release one DVD with absolutely everything a fan could want right off the bat, but no. By continuing to release bigger versions all the time, they keep people buying, even the people who already own previous versions.

Yes they do. What you're talking about is exactly true. But we're talking about companies milking an end consumer, versus video professionals buying the tools they need. Different market entirely.

Would I rather have two 8's than two 4's? Sure, who wouldn't? Will I pay $2,400 to get two 8's? Not a chance, my two 4's are working just fine.

Would I rather have a 2007 Toyota instead of a 2006? Sure, who wouldn't? But would I trade in every year because there's a new feature or something? Of course not. I keep my cars about 8 years, on average. I buy one that does the job, and then use it for that job, and as long as it keeps doing the job I need done, I keep using it. When the day comes that it's no longer adequate to the task, I get rid of it and get a new vehicle that does the job I need done at that time.

The cards are the same way.

 

[Abaddon]

I don't really have a problem with what Panasonic's doing here. How much money did they put into R&D on the camera and the cards? They've released a brand new product with no previous backing, they've spent years designing the cards, the camera, putting together a roadmap, figuring out how the cards will be made, acquiring the SD cards and the RAID setup to build the P2 cards, all of that costs money.

They're not just recouping the cost of building the cards, they're recouping the cost of the research and design to bring you the camera and the cards. Your buying a P2 card pays part of Jan's salary, so she can be on this forum as an official Panasonic representative and answer questions about the camera. It pays for Panasonic offering Barry's book to every US-based customer who bought the HVX (still waiting on mine btw ), so it's not like they're trying to steal every dollar out of your wallet.

Every other camera company (Sony, JVC, Canon) released HDV cameras at the prosumer level. Panasonic is the only company (AFAIK) that has released a true HD camera at the prosumer level, which also makes use of solid state recording. That is a HUGE gamble - while other companies can upgrade the equipment in their existing cameras to be HDV capable, Panasonic took a huge risk with the HVX200, and the profit they make from selling you overpriced P2 cards goes to paying off the R&D on the cards and camera, and paying off this venture so that Panasonic will be likely to take a risk and offer something better to the consumer again in the future.

Hey, I'm all for capitalism. They found a way to make money, people buy their products, and there ya go. It's my decision whether or not I want to spend my money on theur stuff or not.

Though I haven't used it yet, I'm sure the HVX is a fantastic camera as is the P2 technology. I just personally feel the cards do not hold as much memory as I'd like, and they're way over priced. At this time, the cards aren't worth my money. I would rather wait until the prices have dropped and the memory is increased so that I can buy the camera and not have to deal with the poor storage and price issue.

I think if Panasonic lowered the prices and jacked up the gigs, more people like myself would run out to the stores and buy their stuff sooner than later.

 

[SPZ]

Would I rather have a 2007 Toyota instead of a 2006? Sure, who wouldn't? But would I trade in every year because there's a new feature or something? Of course not. I keep my cars about 8 years, on average. I buy one that does the job, and then use it for that job, and as long as it keeps doing the job I need done, I keep using it. When the day comes that it's no longer adequate to the task, I get rid of it and get a new vehicle that does the job I need done at that time.

The cards are the same way.

Sorry, Barry, can't agree with you there. If the 2007 Toyota has the same engine as the 2006 one, but has the advantage of only needing a gas refill every 1000 miles, compared to the 2006 model, that had to be refiled every 60 miles, that certainly would make me think. Also, lets not forget that in this business time is money. If you have 4 gb cards, for event coverage and documentary work, for example, you would need constant dumping of these cards to either a P2 store and/ or a Laptop. (This for pn capture- I'm not counting on the firestore, since it doesn't support the pn mode). This, in most cases, requires the hiring of someone extra for dumping footage in a continuous shoot. This is money- and a hassle.

I own 2 8gb cards and for most I do its fine. However, I've gone trough situations were I needed continuous recording, and I tried dumping a 8gb card to the P2 store while the other one was recording. Here's an example: I was recording an event ( May 13th Procession) and filled one of my 8gb cards. I put the p2 store on my backpack, hoping for the dumping process to be done while I was recording. Of course I ended up needing to stop the camera and take out the P2 store when the other 8gb was full. The p2 store was only at 50 %. I had to stop and wait till it was full to rejoin the procession and continue filming.

This was a hassle. 2 8gb where not enough for continuous recording. I certainly needed at least 1 more 8gb- that's more 1500 USD at those times- now is 1200 USD.

As for technology sake, I believe it is possible for Panasonic to create a 16gb P2 Card. 4gb sd cards have been in the market for several months, and they are being mass produced. As for 32 gb, 8gb sd cards are not out in the market yet, so it should be unlikely until the end of 2007, beginning of 2008- Probably when Panasonic introduces the new Varicam with the 10 bit Panasonic 4:2:2 codec.

My 2 cents.

 

[Jason Ramsey]

Amen......
It's not how big your cards are it's how you use them when they are in the slot

I am bypassing the p2 cards entirely, for now, when I get my equipment. I will go with the cineporter when it is released, because I will need its longer record times since most of my prospects for early work are live event stuff. whether I am shooting dvcpro50 or hd, i want the record time and don't want to have to swap tapes, cards, etc. In the mean time I will shoot mini dv, and possibly buy a 4 gig card just to screw around with it, and learn the workflow on whatever nle I use, if the cineporter is not out when I purchase the bulk of my equipment.

things take time. Use what you got. And get what you need for what you do.

Then again, guys like us, are just speculating/armchair qb, etc., like Barry said, and probably have no business doing so.
Then there are guys like barry, and the others who are using it now for their daily chores, and are in turn providing us with the information we need to make educated purchases to best suit our needs, and not have to go through some of the same trial and error as they have.

If you really think Panny is just trying to screw its base or whatever, then you probably don't want this cam. You will just have a bad taste in your mouth anyways.

I personally am soooo excited about getting my hands on this stuff and learning just a 1/10th of what some of these guys on this forum know.

As far as others making p2 cards, the patent is one thing. I'm sure panny might eventually release it to third parties, but not if there is not the demand for the cards to make that more of a necessity right? At least one can know they are going to get a more expensive card that works, as opposed to a generic that is inconsistent. Why flood the market, when, from what I am gathering from here, there is not the demand to nessecitate doing so.

The thing that troubles me more, is the fact that pcmcia seems to be on its way out in the pc/mac world. What might that mean for the p2 format, if panasonic isn't able to release higher capacity more cost effective p2 cards relatively soon? Would we possible see the first revision of the hvx moving to an expresscard kind of slot or something. Or will we see a move back to pcmcia, or at least continued (and improved) availability of pcmcia slot becuase p2 is the "coolest thing around". But then, with usb, I guess it doesn't matter. Done. Shutting up.

Man I am wordy i need to learn to be more concise.

Jason

ps. just saw the last post.... there is a big difference between 60 miles and 1000 miles. If the cost was the same and you are getting almost 20 fold increase in mileage then hell yeah. but if you are going from 60 to 120 miles, is it worth it to go for the 2007 when you haven't paid off the 06 yet? how many miles are you going to have to go before you see any cost/mile (or gig) benefit.?

 

[ShannonRawls]

Do you think they went to Sony and Canon and JVC and said "tell you what guys, we have the capability and the technology to absolutely bury you. We could put you out of business today. But instead, we're such nice guys that we'll leave you plenty of marketshare, and instead we'll just screw the customer as hard as we can."

Do you really think that's the business model at work here?

Well, Panasonic "is" JVC and Sony & Panny have many business deals going together so.....LOL, sometimes, I do. I don't trut none of em. *smile*

I know corporations sometimes have 'secret' meeetings in places like Dubai to discuss who will get, do & have what. Hollywood does it all the time. Especially when copyrights are broken and negotiations are needed.

But Microsoft ....those guys are out for blood! *smile*

 

[AshG]

Let me say again, until the market is large enough, nobody else will care. You are going to have to see a LOT more P2 devices out there to drive prices down and I dont see that happening. There will be the natural downward curve of technology but given that Panny already has done the R&D, they are most likely in a position to sell them cheaper than anyone else...



ash =o)

 

[SPZ]

Well, Panasonic "is" JVC and Sony & Panny have many business deals going together so.....LOL, sometimes, I do. I don't trut none of em. *smile*

I know corporations sometimes have 'secret' meeetings in places like Dubai to discuss who will get, do & have what. Hollywood does it all the time. Especially when copyrights are broken and negotiations are needed.

But Microsoft ....those guys are out for blood! *smile*

No Shannon, RED is out for Blood !

 

[troypod]

not long ago you had to pay 100 grand for a linear cut suite. I think what we have right now is pretty damn good for technical progression in this industry. Now, I can do 100xs better with maybe $10,000 worth of equipment. I think what I'm trying to say is that P2 is incredible, even at the price it is, and at where this industry came from. do you realize what you're able to do with it?

 

[Crown1]

C'mon dude.

You really think companies like Panasonic aren't able to make cards with MUCH more memory right now? And are you telling me you won't eventually buy new P2 cards with more gigs when they're released?

The HDX900 is not a P2 cam.

Thats one indication of Panasonic's inability to make higher capacity cards available in a reasonable time frame.

The HDX900 would have probably needed P2 cards with a capacity of minimum of 32GB if not 64GB. With the HDX900 + lens+ acc costing around $50K, a $5K investment in higher capacity P2 cards would have been very acceptable. Guess Panasonic were not able deliver the 32GB/64GB cards even at this or some higher price point.

The capacity/cost issue with the P2 cards would have been apparant to Panasonic at the design stage of the HDX900.

This is also an indication of a possible exclusion of the P2 from a future Panasonic roadmap.

Flash memory is still the best option , just that it will probably have to be in a form factor other than P2

 

[SPZ]

The HDX900 is not a P2 cam.

Thats one indication of Panasonic's inability to make higher capacity cards available in a reasonable time frame.

The HDX900 would have probably needed P2 cards with a capacity of minimum of 32GB if not 64GB. With the HDX900 + lens+ acc costing around $50K, a $5K investment in higher capacity P2 cards would have been very acceptable. Guess Panasonic were not able deliver the 32GB/64GB cards even at this or some higher price point.

The capacity/cost issue with the P2 cards would have been apparant to Panasonic at the design stage of the HDX900.

This is also an indication of a possible exclusion of the P2 from a future Panasonic roadmap.

Flash memory is still the best option , just that it will probably have to be in a form factor other than P2

That's what I fear...

EDIT- Still, it is a dvcpro HD camera, so the HVX will not become obsolete as a professional HD camera for the next 2 to 3 years- maybe we can have a cheaper DVCPRO HD deck recorder from panasonic? Something in the 5000 to 8000 USD mark?

 

[DavidBeier]

^
5k-8k? That's more than the camera. I'll happily stick to P2.

 

[Abaddon]

Let's look at it from another angle. Do you think companies like Panasonic really enjoy it when prospective customers whine "WHAT?!?!?! 4 minutes of recording time?!?!??! ARE YOU JOKING?!?!??!"

I'm sure they really enjoy that particular dialogue.

No, but I don't think it worries them. They know they've made a kick-ass camera and over the years, they'll be making a lot of cash just like they did with the DVX.

Let me put it this way: if P2 cards were 32gb right now, and $100 each, would anyone, anywhere, at all, buy anything OTHER than this? Not a chance in hades. Once they see the workflow nobody would shoot tape ever again.

It wouldn't matter if they released terabyte cards. People will always buy the camera that suits their purposes. People will buy Sony, Panasonic, JVC, etc. depending on their needs and budgets. Some people like the Z1U's better than the HVX's and it has nothing to do with P2.

So do you think Panasonic is really trying to keep themselves from dominating the camcorder world? Do you think they went to Sony and Canon and JVC and said "tell you what guys, we have the capability and the technology to absolutely bury you. We could put you out of business today. But instead, we're such nice guyout s that we'll leave you plenty of marketshare, and instead we'll just screw the customer as hard as we can."

Again, even with huge P2 cards, no company is going out of business. Each of the other guys will always offer something that the public will want. Besides, they'll just come out with technology to match. Maybe Canon will come out with a blu-ray camera.

Do you really think that's the business model at work here?

I honestly do. A company is gonna try to profit as much as possible.

It would be profoundly stupid of Panasonic to try to make a "killing" on the cards. They need as many people as possible to buy into the P2 system -- they're very committed to going absolutely tapeless and they want everyone to buy into this idea. And they very well know that nobody is going to buy lots of cards. The plan is for people to have two to three cards, max. That's it. That's all they need. And everyone knows it.

Somehow I doubt that. If someone is out on an all day shoot and has no way of dumping the footage onto another drive, 4GB or 8GB cards aren't gonna do the trick unless there's a stack of them.

Depends on how big they are, what they cost, and what the need is. Why don't you run a poll here to find out how many of us who own 4gb cards dumped 'em and upgraded to 8gb's the minute they became available? I'll bet the number is none, or close to it. And how many of us who have 4gb's intend to dump 'em and buy new 16gb's when those come out? A few, I'm sure, as 16gb is a significant workflow improvement. But not all. I think a lot of us would upgrade when the 32's come out. With two 32's you're talking about an hour of 1080p footage in-camera at once, and that's a big step up, worth spending the dough on for some of us.

Well that's what I'm saying. Eventually, everyone will upgrade. It makes much more sense to own a 32GB card than a 4GB. Shooters need to be able to have plenty of storage, especially on long shoots.

Um, that's what people are doing already. Except I'm doing it with two 4's, and others are doing it with two 8's. For my usage, I simply don't need more. And if I really did need something else for a specific job, I could just rent it.

Yet another pain in the ass. I'm someone who doesn't want to deal with having to rent a few cards everytime I go out on a shoot. My shoots sometimes require several hours of shooting, so I need to be able to have a lot of storage at hand.

Your opinion. But for the people at Panasonic who make the business plan, they seem pretty happy with it.

As long as they're making money, they're happy.

Those of us who have paid for and amortized our 4GB cards, and who don't need more. You can do an awful lot with 4GB cards.

Hey, if that's all you need, more power to ya. But there's a lot of us who can't make due with that.

Look, I'm speaking as an OWNER, not as some theoretical armchair quarterback second-guesser type of guy.

No offence, but you're also speaking as someone who's buddies with the people at Panasonic. I'd be surprised to read a negative comment from you about the camera or the P2's.

I've got the system. I'm using it. And I'm telling you, two 4gb's is all you NEED to do any sort of dramatic narrative production -- films, music videos, TV commercials, things like that.

Well sure, if you have an assistant with a laptop and a P2 reader by your side all day.

As larger cards come out it'll open up more types of productions. Right now I wouldn't want to shoot an hourlong concert on two 4gb cards, no. Two 16gb's would give 80 minutes of 720/24pN in-camera, so yes that now becomes practical. Or weddings or whatever. And for those who want to do those types of jobs, they'll have their chance, supposedly by the end of this year.

And that's why I'll be waiting until then. Not to shoot weddings or any other crap, but most of my projects run more than a few minutes at a time.

But that doesn't mean I have "card size lust" or that for some reason I'll find my 4gb's inadequate just because something larger is out.

Yes they do. What you're talking about is exactly true. But we're talking about companies milking an end consumer, versus video professionals buying the tools they need. Different market entirely.

Unfortunately, the companies aren't making things as practical as they could for the people.

Would I rather have two 8's than two 4's? Sure, who wouldn't? Will I pay $2,400 to get two 8's? Not a chance, my two 4's are working just fine.

Would I rather have a 2007 Toyota instead of a 2006? Sure, who wouldn't? But would I trade in every year because there's a new feature or something? Of course not. I keep my cars about 8 years, on average. I buy one that does the job, and then use it for that job, and as long as it keeps doing the job I need done, I keep using it. When the day comes that it's no longer adequate to the task, I get rid of it and get a new vehicle that does the job I need done at that time.

That's not a fair comparison. There's a much greater difference between a card going from 8GB to 35GB than an '06 car going to an '07. See, the P2 technology is a great thing, but if you can't do long shoots as easliy as you can with tapes, then it's not as great as it could be. If the idea behind the P2's is to move tape use out, then it needs to be just as practical. Right now, it's not there yet because the P2's are much more expensive and they don't hold nearly as much footage.

Let me just say that if Panasonic were to release 32GB or higher cards now at a fair price, I'd be at B&H right now placing my order. But instead, I'll wait, save my money, and get the camera when all has become practical. And you know what? By then, another company may be releasing a camera that's much better and more practical than the HVX, and I'll go with them instead. And I do think this is something Panasonic should consider cuz I'm sure there are a lot of people who feel the same way.

Seriously dude, how much do you think it costs to produce a P2 card? And how the hell does it make sense for there to be a $580 difference from a 4GB card to an 8GB? Panasonic knows there's no real competition yet, so they're keeping their prices very high until that happens. Hey, business is business, but let's not fool ourselves into thinking Panasonic, or any company for that matter really cares more about how we feel over how much $$$ they stand to make. Sure they want us to be happy. But just happy enough to keep us as customers.

 

[SPZ]

^
5k-8k? That's more than the camera. I'll happily stick to P2.

Well, I was taking realistic pricing into consideration. If they are going to sell the HDX-900 for 20k, for example, and it includes a dvcprohd deck in it, and the current cheapest dvcpro HD deck goes for 20k, than a fair price for the system should be between the 5k and 8k range.

Of course I would like the deck to cost 3k or less, but that would be impossible. The SDX900, with a built in dvcpro50 deck, costs about 14k now at discount price, so I would assume a dvcprohd deck would cost less than that camera, but not much.

 

[Jason Ramsey]

ahh, pessimism, gotta love it

 

[ksteiger]

"ahh, pessimism, gotta love it"
Yeah. And a complete contempt for engineering R and D.
I would like my jet pack. I KNOW they can make em, man. Those corporate fat cats are just hosing us man!
I never understand these threads. "Out of curiousity", how come I can embrace this technology and see all the adavntages while others want to just throw rocks and complain about the way it SHOULD be.
Maybe P2 will lose out in the end. All I know is that as long as I have my current laptop and camera, I can churn out stuff that looks great, is easy to capture and edit, and best of all, is making me money NOW!

 

[dregenthal]

. . . It would be profoundly stupid of Panasonic to try to make a "killing" on the cards. They need as many people as possible to buy into the P2 system -- they're very committed to going absolutely tapeless and they want everyone to buy into this idea. And they very well know that nobody is going to buy lots of cards. The plan is for people to have two to three cards, max. That's it. That's all they need. And everyone knows it.

Somehow I doubt that. If someone is out on an all day shoot and has no way of dumping the footage onto another drive, 4GB or 8GB cards aren't gonna do the trick unless there's a stack of them.

Abaddon- I'm not sure I see your point . . . The guy who "wrote the book" gives you a detailed answer to your question and you want to take issue with his facts?

One would presume that you are at least well enough informed to know how long you can record to a P2 card without having to incorporate that information into every answer to your post(s). Only an idiot would go out to capture something armed with only a couple of cards if they did not have the other part of the equation . . . i.e., laptop, P2Store, whatever. For example, with a P2Store and a couple of 4gig cards at 720p/24pn, you can record for approximately 2 hours and 50 minutes, non-stop. If your camera is on sticks and you don’t have to move you (or at least we) can accomplish this un-assisted. If you are moving it is still achievable, but easier if you have someone to help. If the concept is too deep for your grasp or almost 3 hours continuous recording isn’t enough you should probably stick to mini-dv (HDV), and go make a name for yourself.

So whether YOU doubt it or not, and want to sit back and bad-rap the technology while waiting for bigger cards that is certainly your prerogative but I think you should at least test your theory or conduct a poll before taking issue with facts that are proven day after day by people who own the camera and make or supplement their living with it. There exists far too much evidence that fly’s in the face of YOUR statement, not Barry’s.

 

[Abaddon]

Abaddon- I'm not sure I see your point . . . The guy who "wrote the book" gives you a detailed answer to your question and you want to take issue with his facts?

One would presume that you are at least well enough informed to know how long you can record to a P2 card without having to incorporate that information into every answer to your post(s). Only an idiot would go out to capture something armed with only a couple of cards if they did not have the other part of the equation . . . i.e., laptop, P2Store, whatever. For example, with a P2Store and a couple of 4gig cards at 720p/24pn, you can record for approximately 2 hours and 50 minutes, non-stop. If your camera is on sticks and you don’t have to move you (or at least we) can accomplish this un-assisted. If you are moving it is still achievable, but easier if you have someone to help. If the concept is too deep for your grasp or almost 3 hours continuous recording isn’t enough you should probably stick to mini-dv (HDV), and go make a name for yourself.

So whether YOU doubt it or not, and want to sit back and bad-rap the technology while waiting for bigger cards that is certainly your prerogative but I think you should at least test your theory or conduct a poll before taking issue with facts that are proven day after day by people who own the camera and make or supplement their living with it. There exists far too much evidence that fly’s in the face of YOUR statement, not Barry’s.

You don't seem to get my point at all.

I never "bad-rapped" the technology. I think the technology is great. But the cards cost to much and they don't hold enough footage for my needs.

Let me ask you this. If I'm on an all day shoot, alone, and not able to dump cards or attach to an external drive, how will the HVX with P2 work to my advantage?

See, it may be wonderful for those of you who have an assistant, a laptop, and external drive, a pile of P2 cards, etc. But some of us aren't interested in shelling out extra thousands of dollars and making our shoots into bigger productions than they need to be.

Shooting with tape is easy, cheap, and fast. When Panasonic decides to drop their P2 prices and increase the storage space, thereby making it just as easy as tape use, then I'll run out, buy the camera, and praise it up and down.