Out of curiosity, why can't others make P2 cards?

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DavidBeier

DavidBeier

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It seems part of the reason P2s are so expensive and hard to find is that panasonic is the only one making them. Thus, it's like our only option with memory cards are the uber-expensive professional kind. When I'd shoot DVX, I'd by the professional pansonic tapes for my own stuff but use cheaper ones when working on something for someone else. Why exactly can't we have this option with P2? Why isn't anyone else making these cards?
 
I am not sure how much the sd s inside of the p2 are actually: as they are the "ultra" fast(and this way most expensive), i am not so sure how chep one could manufacture them.

For sure it would go down in price if theres another brand producing this, but i think the main reason is the high price of the basic sd cards.

Maybe someone out there, who knows which sd cards are inside and whats actually the cost of them??

Would be also interesting to know what 16gb cards would approximatly cost...!
 
I was told by a Panasonic Rep that they alone will hold the rights to P2 for a few years in order to make money off of this new product. He said that in the future they will license the product to other companies which will be good for all of us because it will make the cards cheaper and more available.
 
Also remember that P2 cards are not just memory cards, they have a very tricky RAID system built in that is very demanding. The chips inside the P2 card are of a quality you will not find in any other memory card anywhere. They are very specialized.

Go with an FS-100. I've been using one for months in the field and love it.
 
The price of P2 is my biggest gripe so far with Panny. The prices are somewhat unreasonable I think (of course, I'll pay, just like most of you will). I don't know if they are turning a profit with the HVX200's, when sold or not. I know video game manufacturers usually lose money on their systems at first, and make up for it with games sold. If this is the case, then I guess it is fine. But, if Panny is making money on the HVX's and charging this ridiculous premium for these cards, then I think it is kinda lame. I know there is a raid system in each card, but c'mon, that doesn't add that much to the cost. When I am seeing 2 GB SD cards for $30 (this is retail price, remember), I start to wonder. You put four of those in a P2 RAID config for 8 GB total, and you've got $120. I understand, these are premium versions of SD cards, but the price difference isn't that much. This overpricing clearly carries over to their P2 Store unit. Everyone knows that the P2 Store is a horrible value (but a great product).

This isn't meant to look like some rant, or that I am unhappy with my HVX, because I'm not. I'd recommend it to anyone in the market for a sub $10k camera.

I just wonder what these cards would cost, if it was exclusive to the Prosumer market, and the technology wasn't used for their ultra-highend cameras as well. I bet they would be half the price. This is one instance where using the same medium as their top of the line cameras is a disadvantage. Because Panasonic knows that if someone will buy a $90k camera, then they'll surely pay a couple grand to fill it up with memory cards. Maybe I'm wrong on this, but I have yet to read/hear an explanation that makes me think otherwise.

But then again, they developed the technology, and supply and demand clearly shows that they are selling every bit of P2 they can produce at this inflated price. But I still can't say to myself that this is a good value.
 
You, and anyone else who wants to, are free to produce your own P2-compatible product if you want. If you think you can do it better/cheaper than Panasonic can, go right ahead. In one post several months ago Jan told someone "hey, if you can produce the product cheaper and still meet our quality standards, I'll give you a purchase order for 1,000 units right now" (I don't remember if those were her exact words, but I'm sure that was the gist of what she said).

The problem is that this is a relatively low-yield electronics item. Electronics manufacturers are used to pumping out millions of units, not thousands. When the economies of scale get to the point where Kingston and Crucial and Sandisk and Lexar all think that they can make good money getting into this business, they'll get into the business. If the cards were so overpriced, other companies would look at that tasty fat profit margin and get in on the action.
 
Barry_Green said:
You, and anyone else who wants to, are free to produce your own P2-compatible product if you want. If you think you can do it better/cheaper than Panasonic can, go right ahead. In one post several months ago Jan told someone "hey, if you can produce the product cheaper and still meet our quality standards, I'll give you a purchase order for 1,000 units right now" (I don't remember if those were her exact words, but I'm sure that was the gist of what she said).

The problem is that this is a relatively low-yield electronics item. Electronics manufacturers are used to pumping out millions of units, not thousands. When the economies of scale get to the point where Kingston and Crucial and Sandisk and Lexar all think that they can make good money getting into this business, they'll get into the business. If the cards were so overpriced, other companies would look at that tasty fat profit margin and get in on the action.
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I was waiting for you to jump in. There was a thread on this a while back and you pretty much explained why you just just slap some sd cards and make your own
 
Hey, I'm all for someone making a compatible card. What I find frustrating is people just whining, instead let's take some proactive action and do something about it. Instead of cursing the darkness, let's light a candle.

I've been trying to nag Specialized Communications into producing a P2 substitute card; I'd like to see them make a P2-compatible shell with the appropriate processing electronics, which accepts a Sandisk Extreme IV CompactFlash card. That way you could use the Extreme IV for a somewhat bargain P2 substitute, but if you really needed to go cheap you could pick up a CF card anywhere and plug it in. I even have what I think is a great bogus name for the product: CheaP2. So far, no go -- they've got their hands more than full with getting the CinePorter finished, but maybe once that's on the market hopefully they'll revisit the idea.

Guys, the simple fact is that Panasonic isn't just rolling in the dough from these cards. It's a very small niche market right now. I've nagged several companies to get into the market, and it's just too small right now. Even with something like 20,000 to 50,000 HVXs out there, electronics companies are used to making millions of ram sticks or flash cards. And a P2 card ain't just SD cards! Someone would have to go through the process of reverse-engineering everything a P2 card does. So far, AFAIK, only Spec-Comm has done that. It is not a trivial process.
 
I tried to make it clear that my comment wasn't a rant, and I hope it didn't come off like I was whining. I just was stating why I thought the prices of P2 were high. I have absolutely no inside information on any of the numbers (units sold, manufaturing costs, etc). Obviously my theory for the prices must have been wrong.

It has been posted on here that Panny has exclusive rights to the P2 medium, for profit purposes, and I took that into account when developing my opinion. But, I guess that info was false.
 
This is the problem with lack of competition.

If there were competition, the 8GB cards would probably go at a few hundred dollars.

And just look at what's been happening with SD cards. You can now get a 4GB card at what a 1GB card cost just about a year ago.

I believe it's within a company's recources to produce cards that can carry much more data. But by releasing cards with a little more memory each year or so, they get people to continue buying year after year. It's just like computer upgrades. The way they see it, why release a 500GB card now when they can just add a few gigs year after year and keep the same customers upgrading?

It's all about making the most $$$ possible.
 
Abaddon said:
If there were competition, the 8GB cards would probably go at a few hundred dollars.
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Everybody wins with competition. So start nagging the competing companies to make some product.

And just look at what's been happening with SD cards. You can now get a 4GB card at what a 1GB card cost just about a year ago.
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Hmm... yeah... kind of like a $1750 4GB P2 card now going for $550. Or a $2750 8GB card now going for $1200, less than 9 months later...

(i.e., that was the whole POINT of going with SD cards as the basis for P2 cards)

But by releasing cards with a little more memory each year or so, they get people to continue buying year after year.
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Again, a fundamental misunderstanding. Who's been buying more and more? I've had my camera and cards longer than anyone, and I'm still running off my same two original 4GB cards. P2 isn't something you need to upgrade continuously. You buy what works and you work with it. If what's new costs too much, you don't buy it.

The cards don't come with "a little more memory", they double in size. First there was a 2gb. Then there was a 4. Now there's an 8. And a few months from now there will be a 16. Next year there'll be a 32. That's how it works. They have to base it on the underlying SD card technology. 4GB SD cards have only now come on the market, so now Panasonic can build 16GB P2 cards. It hasn't been possible before now because the 4GB SD card didn't exist yet.

The way they see it, why release a 500GB card now when they can just add a few gigs year after year and keep the same customers upgrading?
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Is anyone doing that? Is there anyone on this forum who has upgraded their 4gb cards to 8gb's? I don't know of anyone. I know people who have bought 8gb's instead of 4gb's, but I haven't heard of anyone who sold their 4gb's to "upgrade" to 8gb's, or of anyone who's planning on selling their 4's or 8's to "upgrade" to a 16gb.

It's all fun and games to play "conspiracy theory" but come on... do you guys realize how few cards they sell? P2 cards are not now, nor will they ever be, a high-volume item. Two, maybe three cards per camera is all they'll ever likely average. People keep wanting to say "it's a 'razors and blades' business model" but the observable evidence shows that that's completely inaccurate. Two, maybe three cards EVER. That's what people are buying, that's what they're working with, and there's no NEED to upgrade or trade in or keep buying more and more. Maybe someday when 4gb cards cost $30 each, maybe then people will own a dozen of 'em, but I'm going on 9 months of ownership with just two 4gb cards and I don't feel any compelling need to upgrade...
 
Barry_Green said:
The problem is that this is a relatively low-yield electronics item. Electronics manufacturers are used to pumping out millions of units, not thousands. When the economies of scale get to the point where Kingston and Crucial and Sandisk and Lexar all think that they can make good money getting into this business, they'll get into the business.
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It was once claimed that Ford cars would be more expensive than RollsRoyce if they were made in the same numbers!

With just a couple cameras supporting the P2 format (and that too only from Panasonic) you are looking at small and expensive production runs.

To add to this the pcmcia cardbus slot will be replaced by the expresscard slot in most laptops by mid 2007, if not earlier. Had this not been the case there might have been a possibility of other applications of the P2 card, and therefore economies of scale.

Short of a miracle, the chances that the market for P2 cards expands into milloins of units, is, I think, very remote.

My guess is that even if you stuff the P2 cards with run-of-the-mill SD cards, they will still cost about the same.

One can work around with 4GB and 8GB cards , but 32 GB is when it starts to get practical. The best guess: a 32 GB P2 card will probably arrive in a couple of years and cost around $1600 or so and another year for a price drop to $800.

Other types of storage media (mostly flash based) will have compelling advantages over the P2. For example the P2 sized $900, 32GB flash disc from Samsung, mentioned elsewhere in another thread.

The HVX 200 and the P2 card are brilliant concepts and pieces of engineering, that have been well executed, but are they viable?
 
Predict gloom and doom if you want to. I have never had a happier experience in my life with this workflow. I've done 8, 16, 35, SVHS, Hi8, MiniDV, Beta etc. The P2 is my favorite of them all. I don't buy media except for DVD's (pretty cheap)
If I really hate it I will just switch over to the other cheap "viable" reliable digital recordable memory system..uhm..er...
 
ksteiger said:
I've done 8, 16, 35, SVHS, Hi8, MiniDV, Beta etc. The P2 is my favorite of them all. .
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All above recording media , except the P2, had muliple manufacturers, used in several brands and longer life cycles. The Workflow advantage that the p2 has is derived from the flash memory it is based on. it is the form factor ( the physical dimensions and the connectors ) that go against the P2 Card.

Why not retool the HVX to accept standard form factor flash media like the 32 GB drive below?
http://news.zdnet.co.uk/hardware/sto...9258739,00.htm
 
Barry_Green said:
I've been trying to nag Specialized Communications into producing a P2 substitute card; I'd like to see them make a P2-compatible shell with the appropriate processing electronics, which accepts a Sandisk Extreme IV CompactFlash card. That way you could use the Extreme IV for a somewhat bargain P2 substitute, but if you really needed to go cheap you could pick up a CF card anywhere and plug it in. I even have what I think is a great bogus name for the product: CheaP2. So far, no go -- they've got their hands more than full with getting the CinePorter finished, but maybe once that's on the market hopefully they'll revisit the idea.
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quoted from another thread:

Here are some pointers:

Samsung has announced a flash memory based replacement for HDD in the form factor of 1.8" HDD. This drive has almost the same dimensions as the P2 card.

P2 card dimensions(H x W x D): 5.0mm x 54mm x 85.6mm
1.8" HDD form factor dimensions(H x W x D): 8.0mm x54mm x78.5mm

the 32GB drive uses 16 chips of 2GB each. 4GB and 8GB chips have been announced and guess 32GB will arrive one day.

It has all the advantages of the P2 and more.

It uses 16x 2GB chips so more capacity (future=500 GB?)
more speed 100+ Mbps (potentially).
Cheaper ( the 32 GB drive is expected to cost $900 at introduction )

Because of its form factor, it can be used in music/ video players, laptops, camcorders and so there is the economies of scale and the benefits of competition (The 1.8" HDD is currently used in many ultra mobile laptops, iPods, Sony DCR –SR 100)

The drive:
http://www.digitalworldtokyo.com/2006/03/look_no_hard_drive_flash_only.php

http://news.zdnet.co.uk/hardware/storage/0,39020366,39258739,00.htm

Also flash memory speed has been upped to around 38 mbps Sandisk extreme IV:

http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/content_page.asp?cid=7-7896-8475

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/con...=SAE4CF8GB&is=REG&Q=&O=productlist&sku=443594

Once mass produced this drive could spawn readers (probably e-SATA) that like today’s memory card readers will be inexpensive and very fast (and perhaps Flash based FireStores!)
 
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Crown1 said:
Why not retool the HVX to accept standard form factor flash media like the 32 GB drive below?
http://news.zdnet.co.uk/hardware/sto...9258739,00.htm
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Because it's not just flash media!

Just as a firestore isn't just a firewire hard disk. People wonder why you can't just plug a hard disk straight into the HVX and record on that... um, because there's a processor and controller and all sorts of command interpretation that needs to be done in order for a hard disk to understand the footage stream. Well, the card is the same way, yet it is also that controller and command interpreter. That's what Spec-Comm found out when they tried to reverse-engineer the card.

Now, if someone wants to make an adapter that has all that circuitry, but takes a plug-in 32gb drive as its own media, well heck I'm all for that.
 
Everybody wins with competition. So start nagging the competing companies to make some product.
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That was kind of the origional idea behind this post. Not so much blaming Panasonic for the high price of the cards but ligitimatly wondering why other companies weren't trying to compete with them and would thus naturally drive the price down.
 
Barry_Green said:
Now, if someone wants to make an adapter that has all that circuitry, but takes a plug-in 32gb drive as its own media, well heck I'm all for that.
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Absolutely!
I agree, since it is in the removable media catagory the interface will have to be contained in the case/caddy/adapter. Elsewhere( like laptops, firestores, video players, the interface would probably reside in the device, and perhaps enable the storage unit/drive to be replaced/upgraded.

If the price of these drives drops to the expected $300 around end '07/early '08 then every camcorder in every format , priced $1000 and above will be a candidate for flash based storage. the smaller ones could probably use CF/SD or other smaller cards.
 
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