Q's About Switching to the HVX

Z

ZVF

Member
Hi all,
I currently own a Canon XL2 and I'm loving everything about it...except the fact that it shoots DV25. It's the best SD camera I've used to date, however, SD just isn't doing it for me. I had the privelege of working on the set of an indie film where our DP was using an HVX200. I had my doubts about it, but the footage that this thing produced was breathtaking...I really don't know how else to describe it. Granted, the camera itself won't automatically make the footage superior (lighting is huge!), but you can't go wrong with a superior format & 4:2:2 colorspace.

So, I've been thinking about selling my XL2, 35mm adapter, and accessories to help pay for an AG-HVX200. However, I have a few questions regarding Panasonic cameras as I've only used Canon and Sony in the past.

First of all -- for those of you who used the DVX series -- what were the improvements like from the "A" and "B" models? Were they firmware upgrades? Hardware upgrades? Was the camera's picture quality improved? Were the components superior? The reason I ask is because I may hold out on upgrading to the HVX until an "A" model is released, just so a few of the minor camera quirks get worked out.

Secondly, in the next year, I'm going to be doing A LOT of travelling around the USA and Europe, and I'd love to be capturing my travels in HD. However, I'm a little concerned about the softness factor of the camera's images. I actually love the softness the camera produces as it actually gives a more elegant, filmic look to the footage -- but -- I know of two people over at DVinfo.net that are selling their HVX200's to get the XLH1 because it produces a sharper image for landscape videoography. Can anyone direct me to some sample clips of landscape videography? This is a huge factor for me in getting the camera.

Also, P2 is a little out of my budget, but I'll be able to afford one 8GB P2 card. Not ideal, I know, but 20 minutes of 720pN footage per card is doable for my work until I can afford a larger capacity card when they come out. So, my last big question is the efficiency of the P2 workflow while staying mobile -- how effective would it be to hook my camera up to a PC laptop via firewire, then transfer the MXF files to an external hard drive? Does 20 minutes of footage take about 20 minutes to download over a FW-400 port?

Oh --- and one last question: how is the MiniDV function on the camera? I've been told that the footage really benefits from the in-camera HD downconversion, but I have yet to see any DV25 footage from the camera, and I'm very interested in how it looks. Does the gamma look similar to that of the DVX (because I've always loved the colors the DVX produced)? Can anyone point me to some decent DV25 footage from the camera?

I'm certain I want to upgrade to HD in the near future (especially the HVX-series), but I'm not sure if it's right for me -- so any answers to the questions above will ultimately help me in my decision.
 
As someone who owns both the XL2 and HVX currently I can chime in here with a lot of personal knowledge. The XL2 will look a little better in SD, marginally better but the image will be cleaner and you will need less light but if you need HD, obviously it wont do that.

The upgrades to the DVX "b" model were quite significant IMHO, the LCD seemed better and there was much less chroma noise. If it had 16:9 chips it would have been pretty close to the perfect fixed lens SD camera. I suspect the HVX "A" upgrade will address several issues and might be worth waiting for... only issue is... no way of knowing how long it will be... I suspect next spring or so.

The HVX travels terrific (just take the battery off!!!!) it is almost ALWAYS my camera of choice when I travel. The only time you will notice softness on the HVX is wide detailed landscapes where IMHO, it is not a lot sharper than an XL2. There is more detail but the detail is soft... hard to explain really. That being said, it still looks very good but the GREAT HVX stuff is the stuff that fills most the frame with closer subjects.

Get a cheap PC laptop and P2 Genie, I have my footage backed up to the internal and an external drive at the same time. I just upgraded to a 120GB external and internal so I can keep a LOT of footage with me. For freelance stuff I include the cost of the external drive and hand it to them when I leave. I am one of the few who does not fully like this workflow but it for sure can work.

The absolute achilles heel of the HVX is the MiniDV stuff, the 24P and 30P can look really good but you will need more light than the XL2 BUUUUUT the 60i is garbage. Dont know why but it is noisy, overly sharp, junk... I suspect this will be addressed in the next revision.


ash =o)
 
Wow Ash,
That's a rather satisfactory response! Thank you so much! I've seen some of your posts here and over @ DVinfo.net and I'm impressed by your overall knowledge. Once again, thank you for giving your input and unbiased opinions!

If I upgrade to the HVX200, it'll have to be before November of this year. I doubt we'll see the new model of the camera by then, but as you said - because an upgraded model might be worth waiting for, I may hold off until Summer '07 to make the switch (plus, P2 will probably be a few $$$ cheaper by then, too).
 
I think the HVX will hold its value pretty well, it is the P2 cards that will lose value rapidly. I suspect a 4GB P2 that now is about $500 on the street will be worth $150 or less next year... but... if you are making money on it... so what?


ash =o)
 
ZVF said:
Because an upgraded model might be worth waiting for, I may hold off until Summer '07 to make the switch (plus, P2 will probably be a few $$$ cheaper by then, too).
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That's what I'm doing! :thumbsup:
 
First of all -- for those of you who used the DVX series -- what were the improvements like from the "A" and "B" models? Were they firmware upgrades? Hardware upgrades? Was the camera's picture quality improved? Were the components superior? The reason I ask is because I may hold out on upgrading to the HVX until an "A" model is released, just so a few of the minor camera quirks get worked out.
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The biggest difference that I've heard people comment on in the B is actually the reduced noise. I don't believe these were firmware though since I recall Barry saying something along the lines of, "The HVX200 may not see an 'A' for quite some time since, unlike the DVX, it can be upgraded via firmware and many of the potential bugs were already ironed out in the various DVX models." Ask him for more info.

However, I'm a little concerned about the softness factor of the camera's images. I actually love the softness the camera produces as it actually gives a more elegant, filmic look to the footage -- but -- I know of two people over at DVinfo.net that are selling their HVX200's to get the XLH1 because it produces a sharper image for landscape videoography. Can anyone direct me to some sample clips of landscape videography? This is a huge factor for me in getting the camera.
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Statements like this kind of confuse me. If you like the softer look of the HVX200 then why exactly do you care if two people on DVInfo don't? As far as the resolution goes, you have to take in a lot of things into account. First of all, Pansonic tends to have do a lot less edge enhancement (fake sharpness) then the other cameras and many of us would argue (once again this is highly subjective) that uping the detail on the HVX200 can make it look sharper without producing the rather unpleasant digital look that other cameras do. Barry did some tests where he indicated that, when set to the same level of edge enhacment, the HVX200 was just as sharp and detailed as the JVC HD100 or the Sony Z1. Look at these tests yourself and make up your own mind. As for the Canon XLH1 however, it is a legitimatly sharper camera that is going to resolve more detail. It also is 3k more and, unless you are using the SDI out for uncompressed, uses HDV compression which means 4:2:0 sampling (less color space) and interframe encoding (generated frames, more processing power needed in editing, and possible motion artifacts). Canon's HDV codec is better than JVC's or Sony's but still can create issues. There are tons of comparison articles between the cameras and there are a lot of people here who have shot with them. I'd say find the best looking footage you can from each and decide which will work best for you as a tool. Also, see if you can find Pappas Arts. He spent a month testing the XLH1, another month testsing the HD100, and finally settled on an HVX200. He's produced great footage with all three and would be the person I would ask. I really trust his assesment more than anyone's since the problem with many of these shootouts everyone spends so much energy trying to make the cameras look like each other than they all look like crap. I've seen HVX200 and XLH1 videos from these tests and they don't look half as good as some of the stuff I've seen from a gifted operator using the camera to it's fullest potential.

As someone who owns both the XL2 and HVX currently I can chime in here with a lot of personal knowledge. The XL2 will look a little better in SD, marginally better but the image will be cleaner and you will need less light but if you need HD, obviously it wont do that.
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Could you post some comparison shots Ash as I find this a bit confusing. The CCDs are the same resolution and the HVX200 has the benafit of 4:2:2 colorspace so I don't get why the XL2 would look sharper (except in low light of course). I seem to remember another discussion where someone made the same comparison (also owning both) and said that, even in SD, the HVX200 looked sharper though he felt the light loss wasn't worth it.
 
David, please note that I said SD but really referencing SD miniDV. The color on the HVX is stil 4:1:1 in DV mode. The HVX to DVCpro50 will look better than the XL2 but it takes LOTS of space and can only go to P2 cards. I think sharpness in 480P on the HVX and XL2 are very similar, when I say "better" I am referring to noise, light needed, etc.

I am waiting for an artist/label to sign off on a music video so I can post it. It cuts HVX in 720P with XL2 in 480P uprezzed to 720P... I think people will be pretty amazed how similar the detail and sharpness is.


ash =o)



PS anyone (Barry?) know the issue with 60i DV footage on the HVX? It is shockingly poor...of course, if you are shooting interlaced you would be better off with another camera anyway...
 
AshG said:
PS anyone (Barry?) know the issue with 60i DV footage on the HVX? It is shockingly poor...of course, if you are shooting interlaced you would be better off with another camera anyway...
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Don't know what the exact cause is, but it appears that there's some sort of extreme aliasing issue going on. Doesn't happen in 30p, doesn't happen in 24p, only happens in 480/60i. Probably the one mode I use least of all, so I didn't even know about the issue until Leonard Levy pointed it out at NAB, and since then I've tried to figure out what's going on. Only recommendations I can make are a) if you can, avoid it, and b) if you can't avoid 480/60i, you can minimize the aliasing by turning down the Detail Level and V-Detail Level as much as you can.
 
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