Which HVX Features ONLY avail on P2?

5

500lb Productions

Well-known member
(I searched and searched but I can't find this info. If there's a link to it, by all means, just post the link.)



I understand DV vs HDV recording (with the HDV GOP issues).

Which OTHER features of the HVX are ONLY available when recording to P2? Is there a comprehensive list somewhere?

Is it feasible (although clearly not optimal) to start out recording HDV to tape until I scrape together budget for either P2 or Firestore 100?

Just to confirm: Recording to FS100 works EXACTLY like P2? And the FS can offload directly to PC, or does it have to be captured via firewire?

Thanks.
 
For starters, there is no HDV support. If you are going to record to tape, it will be DV25 (SD DV) only. The HVX200 is not a HDV camera, it uses DVCPro, DVCPro50, and DVCProHD.

Recording to the FS-100 is also not exactly the same as P2. The FS-100 can create MXF files like those written to P2 cards, but the FS-100 can only record data in those recording modes that actually send data to the DV port -- that excludes all the NATIVE recording formats where duplicate frames are not recorded, or timelapse and single-shot mode.

Viewing thumbnails and performing operations on clips is also doesn't work the same way with non-P2 media.
 
You need to understand the differences between HDV and DVCPROHD, not just DV and HDV. The Panasonic HVX200 does not record high definition to tape. The tape unit is standard definition DV. You can record in high def to P2 and then dub it in the camera to the miniDV tape, reducing the resolution on the way. And you can record in standard definition directly to the miniDV tape.

The main thing that currently can only be recorded to the P2 is "Native" mode. And 720pN is where slow motion and fast motion effects are supported. The short story is that firewire requires 30 frames per second. Its not just the number of frames, its a timing requirement. And in native mode, the camera can record in variable frame rates, so its not guaranteed to be capturing 30 frames per second, but more likely faster or slower. Result: native recording can't stream over firewire. And that means that the Firestore, which connects via firewire, can't record in native mode. And you can't capture native mode by streaming over firewire to a computer. You have to record it to the P2 card and then copy the file.

It sounds like you are trying to learn HD and also concerned about the price/capacity of the P2 cards. I would suggest that you read more about it before investing. The HVX200 is not like other video cameras. Its sort of the "Swiss Army Knife" of video cameras. It has a lot of features. And there are many different ways to use it -- many "workflows". I found that learning to use the HVX changed the way I think about video.

You might want to get Barry's HVX book and read it. That will give you insight into all the technologies built into the camera.
 
You can do the variable framerates in the P modes as well, not just the N modes -- it just takes an extra step in post to remove the extra frames.
 
andy_starbuck said:
The short story is that firewire requires 30 frames per second. Its not just the number of frames, its a timing requirement.
Click to expand...

Just to clairify, it is actually 60 fields per second -- there is no concept of frames in interlaced video. I make this distinction because I've found it incredibly easy to get confused between 60fps and 30fps otherwise...
 
The FS-100 now does thumbnails! So the ONLY thing the FS-100 won't do that P2 cards do it the two "native" formats of 720/24pn and 720/30pn. Everything else is the same.
 
A) I MEANT HD vs HDV although I typed DV. Sorry. NOW it sinks in though, that the tape is SD/DV only. Sorry for that brain fart. I'd say typo, but after 6 hours a day of reading nothing but new acronyms, it clearly was a brain fart, and not a typo. In this business, I'm finding that nothing is ever discussed or presented from scratch. Every discussion assumes that you already know 90% of everything, except the little slice being discussed. Helpful for experts, but impenetrable for someone learning new stuff for the first time.

B) rtfm? Now THAT was helpful. It never occurred to me to read the manual. Especially the manual to a camera that I don't yet own. Thank you for that illuminating statement and may you encounter similarly helpful people when you have questions in your own life, perhaps with your car, your plumbing, your girlfriend, or your viagra.

C) Andy, thank you for your VERY clear explanation. Just to make sure I understand: Firewire = 30fps (60 fields). Always and forever, regardless of camera, etc, as it is timing required by the hardware spec. Did I get it right?

D) So the FS100 does everything except the PN modes (for hd), which means it only does the 24P mode which means it has the extra fields included (60 fields in 3:2) (making for bulkier files).

Does it pulldown to P mode when capturing / offloading? From what I read above, it does NOT, due to Firewire timing requirements, but with an extra step in post, it can be converted from the 60 fields without significant loss?

Assuming Avid Express Pro HD in post, how would I get the FS HD into Avid? I'd have to capture into something else and do the frame rate conversion, then import it into Avid?

And from the P2 cards, I'd just plug the P2 card into a PCMCIA reader and import the 24pn directly into Avid as 23.97?

It appears the short answer is: Budget for and get p2 cards (at least 2 per camera). Plan to work with a laptop on the set, and offload the cards after each take or set.


My head hurts. ;-)
 
A) Yeah, HD is not so clear cut. There's new versions coming out everyday.

B) The Panasonic manuel isn't going to tell you anything anyway. You can download just about any user manual for any camera from the manufactuer's site, including the HVX200, but it won't help much. You may want to invest in Barry's HVX book. If you get the camera, you'll need it. If you don't get the camera, you'll be very clear as to why you don't want it.

D) The FS-100 makes the same files as is made on the P2 card. Except it does not yet do the two Native modes for 720. Yes, bulkier files. But with P2 work flow, plan on tons of drive space to start with, even with the Native modes.

Some NLE's like Final Cut Pro can do the pull-down via Firewire during live capture. With P2 material, you're only copying files from your source (FS or P2) to your hard drive, and the pull-down can be done on import (as with FCP) or inside the NLE itself. That's just the nature of the beast. The conversion does not effect image quality at all. the original frames are flagged, so the extra frames are stripped away, leaving only the original 24 frames each second (or whatever frame rate you used) left. It does not re-compress anything, so no image degredation.

I use the FS-100, cause the P2 cards don't have enough recording time for our current project. We are loving the FS-100, very nice, very durable (we've banged it up pretty good), don't let the light weight fool you.

If you can work with P2 cards and a laptop, you'll be able to save money, not having to get an FS-100 or CinePorter.

When my head hurts, I find a shot of good old fashioned American sour mash Whiskey to help a lot.
 
BenB said:
The FS-100 now does thumbnails! So the ONLY thing the FS-100 won't do that P2 cards do it the two "native" formats of 720/24pn and 720/30pn. Everything else is the same.
Click to expand...
Thumbnails are handled differently than on P2 cards though, aren't they? Can you switch to MCR mode and review the thumbnails and perform operations on them?

Also, loop recording is not available with the FS-100, and while pre-recording and timelapse are possible, they must be set up on the FS-100, so you've got one more device and its settings to think about.
 
500lb Productions said:
A) In this business, I'm finding that nothing is ever discussed or presented from scratch. Every discussion assumes that you already know 90% of everything, except the little slice being discussed. Helpful for experts, but impenetrable for someone learning new stuff for the first time.

C) Andy, thank you for your VERY clear explanation. Just to make sure I understand: Firewire = 30fps (60 fields). Always and forever, regardless of camera, etc, as it is timing required by the hardware spec. Did I get it right?

Does it pulldown to P mode when capturing / offloading? From what I read above, it does NOT, due to Firewire timing requirements, but with an extra step in post, it can be converted from the 60 fields without significant loss?

Assuming Avid Express Pro HD in post, how would I get the FS HD into Avid? I'd have to capture into something else and do the frame rate conversion, then import it into Avid?

And from the P2 cards, I'd just plug the P2 card into a PCMCIA reader and import the 24pn directly into Avid as 23.97?

It appears the short answer is: Budget for and get p2 cards (at least 2 per camera). Plan to work with a laptop on the set, and offload the cards after each take or set.
Click to expand...

Hi 500lb Productions, let me say to you:

A) is not completely a truth, I start from scratch about HVX200 and in this kind of forums learned all what I know before I buy the camera, ( Y buy mine dec20/05 and receive March24/06, also I did not have Barry's book neither then nor now), may be a little truth that a forum with about 6 months assumes that you have been there for a while, but as a matter of fact, always there are some body willing to help you even if you are a newbe.

C) partially true, firewire is a transport system that also carries data, time code and DV Video among other things, so you can download files from your equipment throught this port (provided that funtion), you can transport DV and HD Video data except PN files due to a limitation of the system.

You can download HD files from HVX200 to final cut, premiere, vegas, edius, etc. by means of analog HD ports, (cards) firewire connection, P2 interfaces, HD disk plugged to editor, DVC Rack, codecs and programs like Raylight and DV Filmaker, etc, some removes pull down some do not, and most of them does nothing about damaging your images.

In Avid Xpress Pro HD 5.2.4 you simply connect your camera, P2store, Hard Disk or insert P2 Card on Card reader slot and consolidate your files to a designed by you destination place inside you edition system and that's all, begin to edit.!!!

Yes, you insert your P2 or connect your camera and work the same to edit 23.97 (Avid Xpress Pro HD 5.2.4 !!!)

Yes, a laptop on set is a must, but you can work as well with a portable Hi performance Firewire Hard disk to download P2 folders to it.

My actuation: HD (DVCPro HD) is a very demanding technology and requires from who wants to use it some knowledge, skills and creativity and (I think) is a quantum jump in what we know about video and digital cinematography.

about digital technologies, you never stop learning, who does stops working.

:)

Good look
 
Actually, the Native modes can in fact be sent via Firewire. In my review for Event DV, I was told Panny didn't implement it because there was no support for it. The only support via Firewire any NLE has at the moment is NTSC or PAL standards. But it could, in fact, be sent via a Firewire cable if Panasonic decided one day to just do it. It was decided not to use it with the HVX200.

Anything a P2 card can do CAN physically be sent via Firewire, it's just how Panasonic chooses to impletment it. As for loop mode on an FS-100, well, not sure when I've ever use it. P2 cards do have some advantages over the FS-100, but none that help my production work flow. Beside, I have to run very long takes and P2 cards simply can't do that. There's no alternative on the market right now. So if you need long takes, there's live capture to a laptop, and FS-100. Laptops are not always as easy to lug around the swamps on our documentary as an FS-100 is.

It all depends on your personal needs.

Get an HVX, dive in, enjoy!
 
BenB said:
Actually, the Native modes can in fact be sent via Firewire.
Click to expand...
Then let's agree on "could be sent via Firewire" because as of today they clearly cannot. To me "can" means it is a matter of getting the settings right, and those settings do not exist in the HVX200 with the current firmware.
 
what can i do with my over-undercranked footage on a PC with Avid? Is there a tool for Avid or PC like the FRC on mac? i´m really searching so long but cant find anything :crybaby: buhuuu...
 
So you can record to the firestore 720/24p but not 720/24Pn? Isn't 24p higher quality than 24Pn?
 
24p and 24pn are the exact same "quality". Just one has extra frames thrown in and one doesn't. That's the only difference.
 
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