When Would You Use A P2 Card Instead Of a Firestore

DavidNJ

DavidNJ

Carbonite Member
The Firestore seems to be much cheaper, with similar reusablity. It seems to have the functionality of 2 P2 cards plus a P2 hard drive without having to download to the hard drive. 2 4GB P2 cards and the P2 store are around $2750 with 60GB storage and the need to download every 15-20 minutes. The Firestore is $1800 with 100GB.

Wouldn't any environment that would be too rough for the Firestore also be too rough for the camera and lens?

When would the P2 be advantageous over the Firestore?

Thanks,

David
 
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DavidNJ said:
Wouldn't any environment that would be too rough for the Firestore also be too rough for the camera and lens?

David
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I wouldn't think so. Sure, you can't put the camera or the Firestore underwater (without a housing, anyway), and using it in a sandstorm is probably not a good idea either. But I can think of several situations that the camera with P2 would work well, but the Firestore might not.

Keep in mind that the Firestore uses an actual hard drive, so it is at least somewhat sensitive to shock. If you're intending to literally run or jump while filming, I would be wary of using a hard disk of any kind to record to. Not to mention the fact that you have an external device to attach to the camera when using the Firestore-- which is also less helpful when running, etc.

Personally, I would think the Firestore would be great for recording events, because you don't have to deal with changing P2 cards. But for anything else, P2 is the way to go.
 
The P2 card is superior to the Firestore in every possible category except two: ultimate capacity, and price per gig. Other than that, the card is just better better better: it's heatproof, dustproof, waterproof, shockproof, vibration-proof, humidity-proof, it's faster, it doesn't need a separate battery, it's smaller, it doesn't need a cable, it's just better in all ways. Plus you can play the footage back in-camera using the thumbnails (FS-100 doesn't let you see thumbnails in-camera) and you can preview the fast/slow-mo effects in the field; FS doesn't do that. The firestore is bigger, external, needs its own battery, needs its own cable, needs a spinning cooling fan, etc... just a bunch more "things" to get in the way, vs. the cards which are safely tucked away inside the camera.

The Firestore has longer capacity (100 minutes). That's an undeniable advantage, for those who need it. But it's about the only advantage for the FireStore. If you need capacity, it's the obvious choice. If you can work with the smaller-capacity cards, the cards are just better in all ways (IMHO).
 
I have been using a two card system rotating cards out and using the P2 genie with a laptop to offload and I must say that in most situations unless you have to record LONG takes of something the workflow is awesome. Clean neat, access to instant feedback to check clips etc...
 
Yes you can. You just need to run the captured clip through a frame rate conversion process in post to extract the frames. Which is the same workflow the Varicam has always used.
 
Ok... but still not as convenient as using a P2 for variable frame rates.

Also, the firestore doesn't handle native 24p yet, does it?
 
Just to clear up THoff's comment, FS-100 does do timelapse and single frame recordings. You set them on the FS-100 itself.

The way to shoot 720/24p currently is to set the camera to 24p mode (not pN), and record the base 60 recording (with the usable frames flagged). The NLE either works with the 24p (base 60) clip or it removes the duplicate/pulldown frames on import. The big disadvantage about not recording 24pN right now on FS-100 is that we could theoretically double the record time (to over 200 minutes). But recording 24p (base 60) still gives you 100 minutes of recording.

Hope that helps,

Matt
 
Matthew McEwen said:
Just to clear up THoff's comment, FS-100 does do timelapse and single frame recordings. You set them on the FS-100 itself.
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Thanks for correcting me. Based on notes in the HVX200 Operator's Manual, I was under the impression that this was not possible.
 
I'm doing a one week doc shoot, 5 or more hours of footage a day (anticipated), and I have the option to borrow a firestore or rent p2 cards. If p2, I'd likely rent 2 8GB cards and offload them to my powerbook, periodically dumping powerbook contents onto harddrives. With the firestore I suppose I'd take a break from shooting whenever it fills up so I could empty it. Not convenient at all, but I can make it work. Each night I plan to trim down the footage and store it on harddrives. I'd like to not buy any more harddrives than necessary. Budget for this little project is very lean - nonexistent really.

Given this scenario, which would you recommend? Would it be possible and efficient, if I use the firestore and shoot 720, to strip out the extra frames for storage purposes when I trim the footage every night, or is this a beastly process? I did a search but didn't turn up anything, though I'm sure this has been answered before.

I appreciate any advice ya'll can impart.
 
What are you editing on? I believe that FCP 5.1.1 will now strip out the duplicate frames on import, so if you're on the Mac this might be a completely painless process.

I'm currently in-between Macs so I can't verify this, but I'm sure some of our other members here can weigh in and answer.
 
A hard disk is more fragile than solid state memory, however is it more fragile than the lens or CCD mount?

No sending the N-modes out the firewire is a big issue. 100Mb/sec vs 40Mb/sec. That would mean the 60MB P2 drive is equivalent to a 150MB Firestore.

Also isn't the Firestore 100GB, a little over 2 hours at 100Mb/sec DvcProHD?

Is the transfer rate (to hard disk) really slower from the Firestore than from the P2? Isn't the gaiting factor the PC's hard disk? Even with its RAID0, aren't the P2s limited to about 40MB/Sec?
 
DavidNJ said:
No sending the N-modes out the firewire is a big issue. 100Mb/sec vs 40Mb/sec. That would mean the 60MB P2 drive is equivalent to a 150MB Firestore.
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It's not a big deal to other capture apps. FCP strips out the duplicate frames on ingest, so 720/24p takes up 40 megabits on the drive. So does EDIUS. I would assume (there's that word again) that such capability is merely a firmware upgrade away from being added to the FS100. At least, I hope it's possible! I think it'd be the single best upgrade they could do, because it'd transform the FS100 into something that could record over four hours of 720/24p footage.

Also isn't the Firestore 100GB, a little over 2 hours at 100Mb/sec DvcProHD?
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Not quite, it's about 100 minutes, maybe a tad more.


Is the transfer rate (to hard disk) really slower from the Firestore than from the P2?
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Yes, the firestore is limited by the speed of its internal hard disk to somewhere around 30 megabytes per second or so. The P2 card is capable of up to 80 megabytes per second.

Isn't the gaiting factor the PC's hard disk?
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Yes, depending on what drive you copy to and how fast that drive is. If the firestore's drive was super-fast, then the limiting factor would become the firewire cable, which will max out at 50 megabytes/sec.

Even with its RAID0, aren't the P2s limited to about 40MB/Sec?
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No, double that.
 
Can anyone confirm the FCP 5.1.1 workflow?

Barry, I hope you're right about the firmware upgrade.
 
yeah everyone says p2 is much better than firestore well all i can say is that my p2 card crapped itself on a shoot and had to be returned to panasonic faulty so it is not so error free, but my firestore did not let me down
 
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