MKH 60 and MKH 416
- Thread starter Gorilla King
- Start date
timapter
Veteran
good gear is easily bought, (well, unless you're my poor ass) experience and respect are earned by humility and hard work.
I would PAY to fly to Israel and assist Exile for a few days - if he says something about location sound, its because there is truth in it, and he has been there and learnt the lesson.
So fair play to you Gorilla, and well done on your kit, but understand that shiny stuff doesnt make anyone an expert, or even capable. Ive been doing sound for quite a few years now, and my gear is OK-ish, but Ill be the first to admit I dont know S.H.I.T. yet, and that there will ALWAYS be someone better than me.
On the good side, it also means there are experienced people to help me out. THAT is what this forum is about, not $5000 = good sound.
I would PAY to fly to Israel and assist Exile for a few days - if he says something about location sound, its because there is truth in it, and he has been there and learnt the lesson.
So fair play to you Gorilla, and well done on your kit, but understand that shiny stuff doesnt make anyone an expert, or even capable. Ive been doing sound for quite a few years now, and my gear is OK-ish, but Ill be the first to admit I dont know S.H.I.T. yet, and that there will ALWAYS be someone better than me.
On the good side, it also means there are experienced people to help me out. THAT is what this forum is about, not $5000 = good sound.
ScoobySounds
Well-known member
right, i've just joined in on this argum.. i mean discussion. - but supposing for a second that nobody is disputing the fact that $$$ does NOT = good sound, there still has to be something said for using nice kit, and improving with it.
[devils advocate]
I used to be a guitar teacher, and I know that with this instrument, guys who start out with a cheap guitar that has the strings an inch off the neck, will not advance so quickly as a kid using his dads $1000 taylor, simply because its a joy to play and can finger the chords easier.
[/devils advocate]
there has to be an analogy in there somewhere.
I'm on the fence.
[devils advocate]
I used to be a guitar teacher, and I know that with this instrument, guys who start out with a cheap guitar that has the strings an inch off the neck, will not advance so quickly as a kid using his dads $1000 taylor, simply because its a joy to play and can finger the chords easier.
[/devils advocate]
there has to be an analogy in there somewhere.
I'm on the fence.
Jeremy Ordan
Major Contributor
I had a friend who in middle school wanted to learn to play the guitar. His parents went out and bought him a Marshall Half Stack, Les Paul Standard with the Cherry Sunburst Paint Job, the Digitech RP1 effects box, tons of videos, and a couple of years of private lessons.
I was at his house last week and picked up the guitar and it hadn't been out of the case in about 15 years... Why? Good gear doesn't lend itself to talent, ability, experience, anything. It just looks good. Where was I going with this... not really sure now.
Another quick story, that has been well documented. I bought a MKH416 because I thought that was the most ideal microphone available. I saw it, I wanted it, I saved and bought it. The problem with this scenerio and purchase is that the 416 had such a tight pattern that when I tried to use it I couldn't get the best sound out of this microphone. The pattern was too tight and the results too pro for my amateur ass.
Now, as my experience has grown and my technique has matured I have no problem running a 416. Was it practice? Nope... Was it time? Nope. What was it? Just experience working with gear, getting to know the nuances, and learning a technique that is completely unnatural in the overall scheme of things.
One finally note:
I was on a family vacation a couple of weeks ago and one of my cousins came out. This guy has been a pro mixer in Hollywood for 20 years and over the last 5 years he has just moved to the boom operator responsibilities because he enjoys not having all the responsibilites. He has a great resume of credits and knows more about microphones and the nuances associated with different kits. He owns a house, has put two kids through college, and makes a good living. What gear does he own? NOTHING! Nothing at all.
I understand that everyone wants to have a kit for their own uses and believes that they are constantly going to be filming so that they need to own all this crap. It is just not true. Here in bum F*ck Charlotte, NC I can rent anything and have it in my hand within 20 minutes. I'm just saying, if you have no experience and no idea what you are doing it is like learning how to drive a Porsche whereas you should go ahead and learn to drive your Miata or something.
Who cares... Honestly, Matt, Wabbit, Tim, Phil, Oleg... Why do we even bother? Preaching to deaf ears.
-Jeremy
I was at his house last week and picked up the guitar and it hadn't been out of the case in about 15 years... Why? Good gear doesn't lend itself to talent, ability, experience, anything. It just looks good. Where was I going with this... not really sure now.
Another quick story, that has been well documented. I bought a MKH416 because I thought that was the most ideal microphone available. I saw it, I wanted it, I saved and bought it. The problem with this scenerio and purchase is that the 416 had such a tight pattern that when I tried to use it I couldn't get the best sound out of this microphone. The pattern was too tight and the results too pro for my amateur ass.
Now, as my experience has grown and my technique has matured I have no problem running a 416. Was it practice? Nope... Was it time? Nope. What was it? Just experience working with gear, getting to know the nuances, and learning a technique that is completely unnatural in the overall scheme of things.
One finally note:
I was on a family vacation a couple of weeks ago and one of my cousins came out. This guy has been a pro mixer in Hollywood for 20 years and over the last 5 years he has just moved to the boom operator responsibilities because he enjoys not having all the responsibilites. He has a great resume of credits and knows more about microphones and the nuances associated with different kits. He owns a house, has put two kids through college, and makes a good living. What gear does he own? NOTHING! Nothing at all.
I understand that everyone wants to have a kit for their own uses and believes that they are constantly going to be filming so that they need to own all this crap. It is just not true. Here in bum F*ck Charlotte, NC I can rent anything and have it in my hand within 20 minutes. I'm just saying, if you have no experience and no idea what you are doing it is like learning how to drive a Porsche whereas you should go ahead and learn to drive your Miata or something.
Who cares... Honestly, Matt, Wabbit, Tim, Phil, Oleg... Why do we even bother? Preaching to deaf ears.
-Jeremy
Jeremy Ordan
Major Contributor
ExileOnTheMainStreet said:
And lose that charm? Ha!
-Jeremy
I have to agree with Yankee, Oleg, etc. For a long time, my primary shotgun was an AT897 and my interior mics were Rode NT5 cardioids (yes, cardioids, not hypers). I learned to focus on the capture process, making sure mic perspective was correct, that it was as close as possible, that there was no shadows in the shot, and that the mix (originally on a Behringer mixer) was as good as I could get. And you know what...even with my poor man's sound equipment, I still delivered good sound. Not great sound, not perfect sound, but good to very good (and significantly better than what would have otherwise been captured had those projects not hired me). This is not bragging. This is to say that learning the process is far more important (IMHO) that have the best audio package. And, from a pure business perspective, I only buy new equipment when my existing equipment is paid for. Gorilla, good for you in buying a very expensive kit with good equipment. If you are going to do this for real, at some point I recommend you take a practical business class or two. You're investing a huge amount of money, and I suspect your ROI will be in the neighborhood of 3-5 years. Not necessarily a sound investment (yes, pun intended). And yes, your kit is good, not great. And you've missed an important part of all of the message streams in this forum. You have no back ups and no options. What are you going to do when you're on a shoot and they convert a PA that was lugging C-stands the day before to be your boom op. There is no way that a novice boom op will possibly be able to cope with your microphones (the patterns are way too tight and unforgiving.) This is why I still have my Rode's and replaced my 897 with a 4073a. If the boom op knows what they're doing (or it's me in an ENG situation), I use the 416 and the Octava hyper. What are you going to do if you're asked to bring your Schoeps out in very humid situations. Everything I've heard is that is not a good thing to do.
For the same money you're spending, you could easily pick up a CS3e and a 4073a, a matched pair of Octavas with all the caps, extra boom and shockmount (I recently had a shoot where we needed two booms and shockmounts, and guess what, there they were in my kit, no problem, including a matched pair of mics). I also personally think you're over-spending on your recorder. While the pre-amps on the 702 are some of the best, you could also buy a recorder like the Tascam HD-P2, and do what I do, go line-in, and bypass the pre's all together. You've got the same great pre's on the 302. And save more than $1000 in the process. And, you get timecode.
Gorilla, I am not meaning to directly attack you here. As a matter of fact, your attitude of wanting to buy the best is rather refreshing. Usually we get questions like "what is the best mic I can buy for $100" or "I just spent $3,500 on a camera and I want great audio but can't afford it. What do I do?". But I do think that you are feeling like if you buy the best equipment you will get the best sound. And, 5-10 years from now, you probably will.
(And yes, I know that things like boom shadow is not technically the sound departments problem, but it is an example of attention to detail that is important on any film set. You'd better believe that if I was working on a larger budget project and was consistently seeing boom shadow that wasn't being addressed by the camera department, I would work directly with the boom op to fix the problem.)
Anyway, this is just my opinion. Do as you please. But, if you come here asking for validation and praise, and are disappointed with honest answers from people that have been doing this for a while, that is the way we are here. I would much rather have Oleg tell me a piece of equipment is crap than tell me it's great when it is not.
Phil
For the same money you're spending, you could easily pick up a CS3e and a 4073a, a matched pair of Octavas with all the caps, extra boom and shockmount (I recently had a shoot where we needed two booms and shockmounts, and guess what, there they were in my kit, no problem, including a matched pair of mics). I also personally think you're over-spending on your recorder. While the pre-amps on the 702 are some of the best, you could also buy a recorder like the Tascam HD-P2, and do what I do, go line-in, and bypass the pre's all together. You've got the same great pre's on the 302. And save more than $1000 in the process. And, you get timecode.
Gorilla, I am not meaning to directly attack you here. As a matter of fact, your attitude of wanting to buy the best is rather refreshing. Usually we get questions like "what is the best mic I can buy for $100" or "I just spent $3,500 on a camera and I want great audio but can't afford it. What do I do?". But I do think that you are feeling like if you buy the best equipment you will get the best sound. And, 5-10 years from now, you probably will.
(And yes, I know that things like boom shadow is not technically the sound departments problem, but it is an example of attention to detail that is important on any film set. You'd better believe that if I was working on a larger budget project and was consistently seeing boom shadow that wasn't being addressed by the camera department, I would work directly with the boom op to fix the problem.)
Anyway, this is just my opinion. Do as you please. But, if you come here asking for validation and praise, and are disappointed with honest answers from people that have been doing this for a while, that is the way we are here. I would much rather have Oleg tell me a piece of equipment is crap than tell me it's great when it is not.
Phil
when i was young ( 18/19), i was dating piano( femaleScoobySounds said:
) teacher and really it was sound grate when we were doing it over 100000$ Bachstein she payed or the regullar one she was teaching the kids - so its not only the instrument what counts ( not that Bachstein was more stimulating and large Boy Gorilla, you have absolutely revealed that you really didn't read through the archives of this forum For you to call Yankee/Jeremy elitist is one of the most absurd things I have ever read on this forum. He is actually one of the most up front, realistic folks here. And if you really read his post, you would understand that. He DOWNGRADED his microphone. How is that elitist.
When you call people names, that is the end. Why did you feel you needed to make this personal?
When you call people names, that is the end. Why did you feel you needed to make this personal?
ScoobySounds
Well-known member
"Dong it" over a cheap piano or an expensive one probably does sound the same!! :shocked:
are we still talking about the same thing? hehe.:laugh:
are we still talking about the same thing? hehe.:laugh:
Jeremy Ordan
Major Contributor
Gorilla King said:
Decent human being... would that be someone who offered advice, experience, and knowledge to a complete stranger to help him save money, time, and non back up situations with his multi-thousand dollar purchases?
ptalsky said:
He's walking the fine line by calling out one of the Hebrew brothas... We got a minion here, and for as much humor as there might be in that comment, I'm being serious.
-Jeremy
Jeremy Ordan
Major Contributor
Gorilla King said:
Gorilla...
I'm going to offer you some free advice, which if you know my people, doesn't come along too often.
1. You catch more flies with honey than napalm
2. True maturity is defined not by age but by how you handle yourself in situations, especially when receiving criticsm.
3. Getting defensive never yields good results (example: I have two bachelor degrees, each with a double major, I have a master degree, and I'm almost done with my MBA... what does that have to do with my ability to read an audio response diagram?).
-Jeremy
timapter
Veteran
i cant play piano, and no woman has ever asked to jump on my guitar
gorilla, i think to call these guys elitest is a bit harsh. is that the thanks they get for helping guide you to the decisions you have made?
besides, what fun is it for the pro's to be pro unless they cant exercise extreme sarcasm every once in a while?
QUOTE: With regards to the RoI, I think that you really have to consider that as being something more than merely monetary. To me RoI is immediate if personal satisfaction is high. - Gorilla
Man, I wish I was wealthy enough to say that... Professional sound is, well, professional. If you can consider it a hobby with the stuff you're buying then you're talking to the wrong, Ramen noodle eating bunch of dudes. No offense..
gorilla, i think to call these guys elitest is a bit harsh. is that the thanks they get for helping guide you to the decisions you have made?
besides, what fun is it for the pro's to be pro unless they cant exercise extreme sarcasm every once in a while?
QUOTE: With regards to the RoI, I think that you really have to consider that as being something more than merely monetary. To me RoI is immediate if personal satisfaction is high. - Gorilla
Man, I wish I was wealthy enough to say that... Professional sound is, well, professional. If you can consider it a hobby with the stuff you're buying then you're talking to the wrong, Ramen noodle eating bunch of dudes. No offense..
ScoobySounds
Well-known member
shall we start afresh?
Peace man.
Peace man.
Jeremy Ordan
Major Contributor
timapter said:
5/$1.00 right now at the local grocery store... I gotta stock up, credit card bills are due at the end of this month
-Jeremy
your brother is a boom operator and producer and double major in business and marketing , are you sure ? - you will be out of business much earlier then i thought
dont get wrong , if you was so good ( awords on festivals) , someone was catching you and bring it to hollywood or at least to the nearest city you live and give you dissent job , pay you some money so you could make films without distraction your self with what mic to buy .since it is not , you probably need more experience or better product to to sell your self , and in that point you are not uniq in the way you deal with the situation - these who wants holliwood jobs and dont have the right DNA or at least talent make this the same way - you are another number in that endless line .
"but when you were relatively new to you how did you like being belittled and insulted?"
.i took it hard, i did it my way, i did all the mistakes, i paid for it , i learned not to make them again, i learned to hear for more experience people who invented the world ( the cinema ) again and again , the regullar stuff of young arrogant **** , exactly like you these days .
but - i sorvived -
dont get wrong , if you was so good ( awords on festivals
) , someone was catching you and bring it to hollywood or at least to the nearest city you live and give you dissent job , pay you some money so you could make films without distraction your self with what mic to buy .since it is not , you probably need more experience or better product to to sell your self , and in that point you are not uniq in the way you deal with the situation - these who wants holliwood jobs and dont have the right DNA or at least talent make this the same way - you are another number in that endless line ."but when you were relatively new to you how did you like being belittled and insulted?"
.i took it hard, i did it my way, i did all the mistakes, i paid for it , i learned not to make them again, i learned to hear for more experience people who invented the world ( the cinema ) again and again , the regullar stuff of young arrogant **** , exactly like you these days .
but - i sorvived -