Nasty interlace in 24p, what am I doing wrong??

C

CritUnitB

Member
I shoot in 24p, check and recheck the settings, capture in FCP's normal DV presets and I still come out with this:

Interlace.png


...and it looks like total crap, even when things aren't in motion. My sequence settings are in tune with my capture settings but it still looks this way all the way through to export. Can anyone tell me what I'm doing wrong? :crybaby:
 
24p comes out of the DVX with pulldown added (i.e. 29.97 interlaced) If you edit in 29.97 and have a final output of normal video (not web, film or 24fps DVD) then you're fine. The interlace will look fine in motion on video.

If you truly want non-interlacing shoot 24pa and edit on a 23.98 timeline with advanced pulldown removal. You can take the 24p you have now and remove pulldown and edit in 23.98 timeline but method will differ depending on the editing program
 
Scottdvx100 said:
24p comes out of the DVX with pulldown added (i.e. 29.97 interlaced) If you edit in 29.97 and have a final output of normal video (not web, film or 24fps DVD) then you're fine. The interlace will look fine in motion on video.

If you truly want non-interlacing shoot 24pa and edit on a 23.98 timeline with advanced pulldown removal. You can take the 24p you have now and remove pulldown and edit in 23.98 timeline but method will differ depending on the editing program
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Sorry, I should have mentioned that this is for web only. I have already shot quite a bit of promotional material in 24p. Is 24pa the only option I have to get rid of the interlace? I'm using FCP and editing on a 29.97 timeline. Thanks.
 
Run the clips through Cinema Tools and do a reverse telecine. Now you can take the output of that and edit at 23.98. Same as 24pa but you needed to go through another step or two.
 
if your target or delivery is TV then shoot 24p standard. if your target is film or comps (progressive) then shoot 24p advanced.

ah but you've already shot your footage and you shot 24p standard then you should use the standard dv preset because that's the material you are working with...it is interlaced video meant for TV. there's nothing wrong with what you are doing or your setup. if you shot standard then work standard. either export back to tape or burn a DVD and watch it on a TV and you'll see everything is fine.
 
There are only two things you have to remember about which pulldown to use:

If you're going to edit in a 29.97 timeline, then shoot 24p.

If you're going to edit in a 23.98 timeline, then shoot 24pA.

Always. It really is that simple.

And as for which timeline to edit on, as you have a full panoply of render choices from a 23.98 timeline (i.e., you can render out as anything you like -- to tape, to DVD, to web; progressive, interlaced; anything), there's really no reason not to edit in 23.98. But that's up to you.
 
Hum.. Thats not the way I do it.

It seems like everytime this subject comes up you have 4 people who say four different things until a Panasonic Rep comes along and clears things up.

I'm not a panasonic rep or anything, but I remember the last thread that was about this problem he said something along the lines of : shoot 24pa if you're working in 29.97, this will produce the cleanest looking footage and give you the option of later outputting to film at 23.98 fps.

When you shoot 24pa you will import back into 29.97, the same is if you shoot with 24P.

You have to understand that when you shoot in either of these modes the camera will add in pulldown, and the different modes offer different pulldown schemes. 24pa is advanced pull down (a more advanced scheme of frames) while 24p just add's random frames at the end that you can flag out in post production to pull a clean 23.98 timeline. This footage will look weird in your editor if you do not remove them properly, i.e. choppy and so forth.

Also, miniDV specification will not let you record to the tape in anything other than 29.97 fps, this is where the pulldown features on the DVX come in handy.

I feel that a lot of people are stating different ways to work with footage based on their editor. Final Cut pro is very exact in the way you work with pulldown. I can't speak about the other editors in their implementation of pulldown.
 
redcap said:
shoot 24pa if you're working in 29.97, this will produce the cleanest looking footage and give you the option of later outputting to film at 23.98 fps.
Click to expand...
No. 24pA isn't ideal for editing in 29.97, because it will have a more pronounced motion stutter.


When you shoot 24pa you will import back into 29.97, the same is if you shoot with 24P.
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If you have a competent NLE, you can go back to 29.97 with either.


24p just add's random frames at the end that you can flag out in post production to pull a clean 23.98 timeline.
Click to expand...
That's not what it does at all. The 2:3 pulldown scheme used in standard 24p was devised many decades ago, and has a very regular pattern -- the first frame is split into two fields; the second is split into three fields, the third into two fields, the fourth into three fields -- and so on, and so on, in a constantly-repeating 2-3-2-3-2-3-2-3-2-3-2-3-2-3 pattern. The result is that each frame is onscreen for an average of 1/24th of a second, and it's the smoothest possible motion you can achieve when watching 24 fps footage on on a 60i screen.


This footage will look weird in your editor if you do not remove them properly, i.e. choppy and so forth.
Click to expand...
Any pulldown scheme will look horrible if it's not removed properly.


Also, miniDV specification will not let you record to the tape in anything other than 29.97 fps, this is where the pulldown features on the DVX come in handy.
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That much is true (in NTSC, at least), but once you've captured from tape, you're no longer bound by the constraints of Mini-DV.

I feel that a lot of people are stating different ways to work with footage based on their editor. Final Cut pro is very exact in the way you work with pulldown. I can't speak about the other editors in their implementation of pulldown.
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There are two main ways NLEs go about handling pulldown removal for editing in 24p. Editors such as FCP and Avid remove pulldown during capture. Editors such as Vegas and Premiere Pro 2.0 do not remove pulldown at capture, but instead capture as 60i files and then remove pulldown on a 24p timeline.

There are arguments for the pros and cons of either method.

Still, the rule of thumb remains the same no matter which method is used by your NLE:

If you're going to edit in 24p, then shoot 24pA.

If you're going to edit in 60i (29.97), then shoot 24p.

That's really all you have to remember.
 
"This is from Adam Wilt's web site

http://adamwilt.com/index.html
[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]When to shoot 24p? 24p Advanced? 30p? 60i?[/FONT]

The general rule is to shoot 24p Advanced if you want to extract the original 24 frames/second for a 24fps edit or film-out. Shoot 24p Standard if you are going to stay on video and edit at 30 frames/seconds (60 fields/second, i.e., plain ol' video at NTSC frame rates), without extracting the original 24 frames into a 24fps timeline. In more detail:

Shoot 24p Advanced for:

  • Post-production using tools that understand Advanced pulldown. 24p Advanced footage can be turned into pure 24p footage more cleanly than 24p standard footage, because every frame in the pure 24p timeline is pulled from a whole frame in the 24p Advanced footage, whereas the C frame in 24p Standard footage is split across two different source frames as discussed above.


Shoot 24p Standard for:
  • Getting the “film look” on video when you're staying on video and editing at 29.97.
  • Intercutting with film transfers also using 3:2 pulldown, and staying on video at 29.97.
  • Working with traditional film-on-tape tools that understand 3:2 pulldown, but not 2:3:3:2 advanced pulldown, when you need to extract the 24p footage for true 24p processing.
Shoot 30p for:
  • Getting true progressive pictures with a 30 fps frame rate, as when pulling stills for motion analysis.
  • Working alongside Canons and older Panasonics in Frame Movie Mode, when you want to match their motion rendering.
  • You want the slightly "filmic" motion of 30p, but don't want to go to 24p, and you aren't concerned about ever going to film or converting to PAL.
Shoot 60i for:
  • Anything that you want to use as plain ol' video at NTSC frame rates: in 60i, this camera makes pix that look (from a motion-rendering standpoint) just like the pix from any other video camera.
  • In other words, use 60i for everything that isn't supposed to “look like film” and doesn't need progressive scan!
 
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So, bringing it back to specifically web-based applications, the only way to avoid this choppy interlaced look is to shoot 24pa? I'm getting a bit of confusion out of this thread.

I haven't gotten to try reverse telecine in cinema tools yet but I will do that with my regular 24p footage to see if it works. I've always heard that 24pa comes along with quite a few hassles, but if that's what it takes to make it good online, then that's what I need. Let me know?
 
Frame by frame 24pa is the best.

Frame by frame 24pa is the best.

From the illustration on Adam Wilts site your frame grab is perfectly normal for the third frame in 24p which is shown as interlaced.

24pa will give you interlace free video. I think that is what you are after.


Here is a short clip in 24pa. Maybe it will help show you if it is what you are looking for.


http://e-motionsmedia.com/K&J%20mix2.mov
 
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Is incorporating 30p footage within a 23.98 timeline along with 24PA footage also okay to do??? If it is, are film transfers still available, or does the 30p disable any chance of a filmout?
 
30p footage will not be in audio sync as it will run 20% faster in a 23.98 timeline and also require constant rendering. It can only be mixed well with 24p footage with its pulldown intact in a 29.97 timeline.

Noah
 
The general rule is to shoot 24p Advanced if you want to extract the original 24 frames/second for a 24fps edit or film-out. Shoot 24p Standard if you are going to stay on video and edit at 30 frames/seconds (60 fields/second, i.e., plain ol' video at NTSC frame rates)
Click to expand...

didn't i say that? along with nearly everybody else :grin:

Is incorporating 30p footage within a 23.98 timeline along with 24PA footage also okay to do??? If it is, are film transfers still available, or does the 30p disable any chance of a filmout?
Click to expand...

the 30fps needs to be converted to 24fps if you plan on going to film...however visit the dvfilm site and that will answer most if not all of your questions here.
 
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