Matt: something you said here in '04

P

powerdog

Veteran
A DVX member, Leopoldo, said he wanted to shoot dialog indoors/outdoors at construction sites. You told him to get a CS3e, and that there'd hardly be anything he couldn't do with it.

I'm starting a project, about 70% indoors, some rooms quite reverberant, exteriors subject to construction noise. Combination of interviews and events. And I'm a one-man show. Indoors I'll use a boom and stand, outdoors probably have to mount on camera.

So my question: after a couple of years' experience, do you still feel the CS3e is that versatile. Or, to put it another way, if I have that and a good wireless lav, what am I NOT equipped for?
 
I still think the CS3e is about the best shotgun you can get... I don't know how ultimately durable it would be in comparison, to say a 416... but I doubt there's a more capable shotgun (as far as pattern).

Why soundguys like the CS3e is that it's a natural sounding mic (I'd say it's warm, but really it's just natural) with a really smooth off-axis response and an almost non-existent tail... what that means is that the CS3e will still sound natural in environments where other shotguns will demonstrate typical shotgun weaknesses... such as fattened bass indoors, which will muddy a track... or odd reflections in a room due to one "arm" of the pattern that's hot in that one direction.

Basically the CS3e may not be my favorite shotgun in an anechoic chamber, but in the real world it's capable in a lot of places that other guns aren't.

If it were my money I'd often times rather have more tools of multiple purposes then one of multi-purpose. I like hypers indoors, with a nice lav as a fail-safe... and a good shotgun outdoors... and honestly there are times when ANY of those can be used with good results.

So what it REALLY boils down to... is how much $ do you have?

My ideal... this is IDEAL soundkit would go something like this:

SD722 recorder if not 744T...
SD302 mixer if not 442...
K-Tek graphite boom... TOTL version... not the avalon that I use now...
K-Tek mount or full Rycote mount/zep system
CS3e AND MKH60 (or possibly the new Schoeps CMIT)
CMC641 (and proper blimp if not BBG/Jammer)
Zaxcom Wireless
Countryman B6
Petrol Bags

And I could continue this on... but it just depends on what you can afford...

Right now my location kit is this:

Marantz 671
Mixpre
K-Tek graphite avalon
K-Tek mount
AKG 480b/ULS system for ck69 long/short gun, ck63 hyper, and ck61 cardioid
BBGs and Softies for all...
Sabra-Som stereo and single mount...
Oktava cardioid and hypercardioid
T.H.E. Hyper
AKG D230
EV RE50
Sennheiser G2 with spare transmitter
MKE2
B6
Gitzo 7680c
Petrol PEGZ-1
Petrol Harness
Sh*tload of cables in all lengths
2 pairs of 7506 phones
Tons of 2500mAh batts

And there's probably a bunch of other stuff I'm forgetting... like 20 some odd sound blankets, etc... but the gist is that I bought each bit according to what I could afford (or not) and also according to a simple ratio of cost : benefit. I think the AKG system is an incredible choice IF you plan to expand the line... I'd put the ck69 up against an MKH60 any day... BUT, had I not planned to take the line farther with the other caps I would have just bought an MKH60! And if I hadn't planned on having several hyper choices I may have just said screw it and got the CS3e instead of either... but I expected to buy a lot of mics... and the fever never ends. Each new mic brings unwanted limitations and unexpected surprises.

The only thing you can do is make peace with the choices you can afford... or the overall direction that you must take according to budget and versatility. Like I said, the mic I'd go with on an unlimited budget for an anechoic chamber isn't the same mic I'd choose at my income for the type of shooting that I do.

If you got just a CS3e, and Oktava, and a G2 wireless with B6 lav... I think you could call it quits and blow anybody away if you use the stuff right... but you could definitely improve the Oktava if you want to spend $600 or so... and even more if you can break a grand... it all comes down to what you have to work with... and honestly, if I was going to do a doc in Africa or Nicaragua (which is actually a real possibility for me) then I may want a 416 instead of the CS3e! Just for the 416 reputation for reliability and durability.

For as much as I love the CMC641... I would never take that mic into the jungle... it just isn't worth it... it may fizz in the humidity. Many guys say it won't, but many say it will... and if it's my ass on the line I'm not going to find out if I'm one of the unlucky ones.

Had you sent me a PM I probably would have sounded more decisive... but it's just that since this is a post I may as well blabber on about what really goes through my mind when it IS my rep on the line.

I like having options... so I want more mics to choose from, but getting the best is never a bad thing unless it means you're done buying mics. I'd love to have a CS3e... but I don't know that I'd consciously eliminate a hyper from consideration.
 
My ideal solution for now would be one really good mic that would be significantly better indoors and out than the ME66. (Maybe in a year or two, I can look at adding another.) I know there's no perfect mic for every situation, but I'm guessing a CS3e is going to be a vast improvement over my Senn anywhere it's used.
 
Yeah... HUGE improvement. The CS3e is one of the very very few shotguns (maybe 2 or 3) that can work in many interiors. I'm laughing my ass off at your statement... not at you... just that you're head will EXPLODE if you get the CS3e and that's your main concern! The CS3e is so much better then the me66 indoors and out that you won't even believe it... a buying experience like that will make you go on a crusade against the me66.

I would buy the Sanken if I wanted to have one of the best shotguns made and use it for the things you use a shotgun for... I would not buy it intending to put it into service as a hyper-cardioid. YES you COULD do that and many times get away with it fine... but I would not spend that kind of money to use a tool that just happens to have a little more versatility then most other shotguns.

If you're on that kind of a tight budget then I'd consider going with a 4073a and an Oktava hyper, then put them both in EXCELLENT mounts and windscreens... and you'd STILL have money left over for a nice boompole or something else.

I'd love to have a CS3e... I may even buy one eventually, but if you're asking me then you can just look at what I actually did with my own money. I put my money into more tools which are specialized for given situations... rather then one tool which just happens to be capable in a few situations that it's not actually intended for.

I'm not saying that I'm right or that my way is the only way... but since you directed this at me I'm answering it from my own perspective. I got the AKG long gun, short gun, and a hyper for less then the price of the CS3e... and for just a little more then the Sanken I also got a cardioid... but if you asked me to trade the long/short gun and hyper for the CS3e I don't know that I would... If I could trade you for a couple weeks and just see if I could live with the Sanken it's possible that I may change my tune... who knows maybe I would be running thread after thread telling everybody to hock their firstborn to get it... but I've worked with a guy that has the CS3e and while I thought it was decent, I didn't get the impression that it was earth shattering... it just seemed to me to be another really good shotgun in the league of the best.

I don't even think it's a matter of vanilla and chocolate... I think it's Haagendazs versus Ben 'n Jerry's. (Of course I WILL say that the CS3e would be the Haagendazs.)
 
Hey, Matt, I'm in Vermont so I better get Ben & Jerry's!! :) Aw, they're Unilever now anyway, so who cares.

(OT: I read somewhere that the fat in 1 pint of BJ = 1/2 lb. bacon. Social responsibility?)

Just to expand on the scenario a bit, I"m going to be shooting in situations where time is limited and I have no assistance. For sit-down interviews, I have a boom and stand. For run&gun, I probably have to camera mount (or grow another arm to hold a boompole).

So you're saying for max versatility with one mic, you'd get the baby blue Sanken if $$ no object? If that's significantly better, I guess the jump from $1400 to $1700 isn't that big.
 
You mean the Schoeps CMIT?

I have ZERO experience with that mic... so I'm not qualified to say. Up to this point I think the Sanken CS3e is the shotgun most likely to yield the best results in random and chaotic situations.

If I was doing a sitdown interview I would definitely have a hyper overhead... but I wouldn't be scared to use a CS3e either... with the bass cut engaged for most rooms... and I'd hope that the speaker didn't sit forward and lean back a whole lot. The Sanken is better then most guns in that it's off-axis response is pretty smooth so you wouldn't have a significant change in timbre as the speaker moves off axis, but if they move off much you probably would hear volume fluctuations. A hyper bubble would be much more forgiving.

But honestly, nobody knows more about the CS3e then Exile... you really should PM him and get his take on this. It just hit me as I was typing this last post that it's stupid for me to be saying so much about this mic when we have him right here in the forum... and he's got several Schoeps and other high-end mics to give you a direct comparison.

Hey Jorge... where are you!
 
you probably wanted say schoeps - cost 1800 , the sanken is 1250 here , thats 500+ different on mic which doesnt come even close on real life work
save the money buy some nice 4073 and good hyper ( akg , neumann 185 or mbho ) , you will still have some mone for wind protection
 
Hey Exile... please add more to it then that... you have such a wealth of experience and knowledge!

Why shouldn't he just get the CS3e and try to use it for everything? In your words please.
 
why not to use more suitable mic for every kind the work and get at least one spare if something going wrong
i have alot of microphones that easily could make few nice kits of independent filmmakers , but my microphones bring money on the level i work ,i have the privilege to buy better mics since i like better mics . and there is no doubt that cs-3 is better , much better then the 4073 , but for the starter who need support his business , looking for clients for some time , i will definitely will suggest spread the money .so at least he can get more then the average for every situation , not to mention not to stand as shmack if his only cs-3 died , what might happen , my first one went caput after few months, wasn't a big problem since i have a few shotguns , might be a hudge problem if it was my only mic .
the same for all the schoeps lovers - exellent mic s- usially not for the most people who lark here
thats my 2 shekels
 
I have my ME66 and my wireless lav in case the mic dies. Also, I imagine all these high end mics retain their resale value well. If I tried a CS3e for a few hours and didn't like it, I bet I could sell it for near what I paid.
 
ptalsky said:
Boy Matt, how scary is it that you're being held accountable for something you said two years ago... ;-)

Phil
Click to expand...


I miss the passion that I had back then... I used to get almost mad at people when they couldn't hear something that I thought was so clear... but it didn't take too long to realize that I was giving some professional soundguys the same headaches that I was getting from people less experienced then me... like with my arguments against mixers and stuff like that. I've since learned to just tell people what I think as a member of the forum and I try not to be too aggressive about it... and if they disagree with me then that's fine too. The hope is that we all get smarter about our choices and use of that gear... and if it's something you're into then you'll save money for continued improvement... and if you're open to advice and criticism then you'll learn and improve your technique... eventually we'll have a huge group of guys (and gals) that are blowing the world away with sound that nobody thought possible from miniDV projects.

It's better to approach all of this with an open mind and help people to discover things on their own rather then force it down their throats... and honestly I don't care if somebody uses an me66 and loves it. There are people who use an ATR55 and don't think it's worth it to improve their mic at all!

Do what you like... not everybody has to be 100% obsessed with details... some days I drive myself nuts with this crap... but more then anything it really is the technique and not the gear.
 
What do you guys think of CMC 6 with mk41 capsule as a boom mic? Advantages ? disadvantages???
 
Okay, I'll take the bait on this one.

First of all, I'm trying to interpret your question. I'm guessing that you mean:

What do you guys think of the CMC 6 with MK41 capsule as a shotgun.

I can think of very few situations where a 641 (the short cut for this mic combo) would not be hung on a boom of some sort.

Second, please search the archives. Again, you can search for Schoeps, CMC6 or 641 and find all sorts of opinions about this mic. But, high level summary: The standard for indoor dialogue on projects. Considered the best, but a bit fragile. Most would not take it into situations where there was excessive moisture or other situations where it is damp (they would take an Octava instead.) An example of this recently cited was MI3.

For any more details, again, read the archives. I guarantee you will find lots of info.

Phil
 
would that be a good combination to have cmc6 with mk41 capsule for inside and mkh60 for outside sound??
 
That would be about my perfect setup. This is what I was saying earlier... that for top end shotgun I could go mkh60, CS3e, CMIT, or Neumann 81... pretty much any of those would make me happy. I think the CS3e is the best overall tool with the highest probability of location sound success... but for MY taste the MKH60 is the best sounding short gun.

So yeah, 641 inside and 60 outside would be a pretty good combo... but if I was gonna' spend that kind of cash I'd be really tempted to just go Schoeps all the way... your call though... I really like the Sennheiser 60... really ironic considering my feelings on the 66.
 
Matt, I don't know where I saw this, but someone described the CS3e as an "unforgiving" mic -- I think they meant unforgiving of incompetent handling, compared to some others. Do you agree?
 
I don't know about that... I think that the CS3e has a pretty narrow front pattern and that if you end up off-axis that you'll have your speaker audibly out of the sweet spot... but I've never heard that the CS3e was unforgiving. We've used it mainly on fixed booms for interviews... I've never hand boomed with it... so I really can't say. I thought it sounded like a good mic, but maybe somebody meant that an mkh60 has a little larger sweet spot out front?

The CS3e has such a smooth off-axis response that I'd expect it to be considered more forgiving then something like a 416... but any really directional gun will surprise you if you can't keep the gun in the right spot. Voices will drop out like you're playing with a volume knob.

Or maybe they meant handling noise... I've been saying this forever and I just read some confirmation from Phil... but the 416 is the one mic I know of that's practically IMMUNE to handling noise.
 
the cs-3 has much wider pattern then the 416 - but since it reject of axis sound in all ranges(low and high) people think it more directional - it is simply not true
 
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