Green Hornet
Veteran
pkendall said:
Are you talking about elimidate?
rogar-BigGrin(DBG)
Urgent-HVX DAILY RATE
- Thread starter Digital Angel
- Start date
Are you talking about elimidate?
rogar-BigGrin(DBG)SilverWolf
Veteran
troypod said:
It sounds like you just agreed with it being too low but you will take the money because you don't want to turn them away
pkendall
Well-known member
Green Hornet said:Are you talking about elimidate?
no, but if the shoe fits :nads:
DVXSanDiego said:
by the way, we're talking freelance...hard living... rates are higher.. if i booked a 21 day shoot for a feature, I would probably charge by the week... and if it was a Napolean Dynamite, i'd probably do i for cheap...
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235 Studios
Veteran
As people have already commented, see what the local rates are for your area, and go from there. A lot will depend on your skill level as well. If you were here in Portland, Oregon, $350 a day would be too low IMO- it would be a killer deal for who ever highered you. To rent just the camera with P2 cards the cost in town is $375 / day ....
but I have no idea of what things go for in the UAE. Good luck.
but I have no idea of what things go for in the UAE. Good luck.
Digital Angel
Active member
I think il increase my starting price, but like a guy said, you dont wanna turn clients away. Im a good shooter, love to edit, the full deal. Doing a bar training video for a big client and the concept i came up with blew them away. But still i dont say what id realy want, because theres always the fear thats there is somone else like you out there who does it for 10 bucks cheaper
I know that only the big production houses here have the camera appart from me, this is PD170 paradise. When people see the dvx they get a bit taken aback.
The other day i was hired to clean up the mess annother *studio*made of a project. Took me a day with delivery and the client was so happy. There are monkies running arround with Sony's here and i cant stand it. And yet most companies would rather go with them ofcoarse cos they have a so called name and staff.
Im considering copyrighting my name as the company name or brand name, figure that might look like im a bit more prestigious.
im gonna test the water with my next client, but i wont hope for a good result.
thx for the tips, im definatly selling myself short.
I know that only the big production houses here have the camera appart from me, this is PD170 paradise. When people see the dvx they get a bit taken aback.
The other day i was hired to clean up the mess annother *studio*made of a project. Took me a day with delivery and the client was so happy. There are monkies running arround with Sony's here and i cant stand it. And yet most companies would rather go with them ofcoarse cos they have a so called name and staff.
Im considering copyrighting my name as the company name or brand name, figure that might look like im a bit more prestigious.
im gonna test the water with my next client, but i wont hope for a good result.
thx for the tips, im definatly selling myself short.
I'm only 3 yrs in the business, so I don't have the luxury of turning people away. I hate shooting most corporate, talking head stuff, but the stuff I do enjoy for the price I should be earning doesn't happen enough for me to make a living in this business. I know everybody here has had to do jobs where they thought they should be earning way more. That's the reality that I'm still kinda struggling with. But at the end of the day, I'm not doing this for the money, as I'm sure most of you guys aren't either.
Labor and Equipment Rates... or... Price Fixing on DVXUser!
Labor and Equipment Rates... or... Price Fixing on DVXUser!
Okay, I've said this before, and I'll say it again: Do not, for the sake of all working professionals in the trades, mix labor and equipment into packages for any client.
Doing so shows the client exactly what we're bringing to the table and exactly what price they're paying for it. They realize we've streamlined everything that goes into the package to a premium price by seeing everything broken out (but not necessarily charged).
Cost of equipment divided by twenty rentals ($10,000 / 20 = $500 per day) is, and has been the industry standard for the last decade. This formula makes it easy to figure Capex, usable life, depreciation and recovery for new assets. Use it when making your next purchase.
rogar-Mark-10(DBG) LABOR - WHAT MUST NEVER BE DONE rogar-Mark-10(DBG)
THE "SYSTEM"... or, our SYSTEM at least!
If you sell day rates, you must communicate the terms of the day rate to the client, in advance, in writing. If you want to show hourly rates, then do so - but do so with a minimum call indicated in writing (e.g., $100 / hour, 5 hour minimum, OT after 10 hours, DT after 12 hours).
Now, on the matter of how much an hour, please consider that I recently paid my plumber and electrician on my home remodel (one not licensed, one licensed) $50 and $75 an hour respectively for their efforts. The craftspeople I employ are infinitely more skilled than my plumber. I can unreservedly attest to this because we have three pipe fittings in the kitchen and basement which leak - after his latest visit.
Your relative skill plays into it, but there are market standards that should help you decide your rate. Undercut every other shooter in your market to $25 an hour and you might just find that that is all the market will bear five years later when you're worth $50 or $75 an hour. I've seen it happen.
Early on, we decided to operate labor based upon IATSE guidelines (though we're not exactly a signatory to the IA), which dictate overtime, turnaround, meal breaks and so forth. Even if you choose to waive any portion of the collective bargaining agreement "to get the shot", it is done "at will" without setting precedent.
There should never be an expectation that you'll do so, but flexibility goes a long way toward good relationships.
If you have a client who insists on, "...all I want to know is 'how much is it for the camera and a shooter?'", it is prudent to indicate that the camera is "flat" and the operator is at $/day to X hours. They must know in advance, in writing, the entire terms of your labor agreement. Any loophole you leave in this area goes to the favor of the client. Always.
Okay, I need more coffee, so I'll stay tuned to this thread and add more as the caffeine boost kicks in.
UNITED, WE WILL CRUSH THEM!
:kali:
Uh... maybe I've had enough already.
e
Labor and Equipment Rates... or... Price Fixing on DVXUser!
Okay, I've said this before, and I'll say it again: Do not, for the sake of all working professionals in the trades, mix labor and equipment into packages for any client.
Your camera should be indicated at a fixed rate on the proposal. In Charlotte, NC, our HVX with P2Store, 3-4GB P2 cards, mattebox, SD 8042 (client foldback) and Marshall 7" is locked at $500 a day. Each item is broken out as an individual item that adds up to over $700 a day when tallied together. None of the line items carry over to the sub column - everything is simply placed under the "HVX CAMERA PACKAGE" price summary at $500.
Doing so shows the client exactly what we're bringing to the table and exactly what price they're paying for it. They realize we've streamlined everything that goes into the package to a premium price by seeing everything broken out (but not necessarily charged).
THE (somewhat proven) FORMULA for FIGURING EQUIPMENT RATES
Cost of equipment divided by twenty rentals ($10,000 / 20 = $500 per day) is, and has been the industry standard for the last decade. This formula makes it easy to figure Capex, usable life, depreciation and recovery for new assets. Use it when making your next purchase.
rogar-Mark-10(DBG) LABOR - WHAT MUST NEVER BE DONE rogar-Mark-10(DBG)Whether you've decided to sell labor to clients on a flat, hourly, daily or weekly rate, you must lock it in (in writing, of course) and never, ever, never, never-ever discount labor. Never, as in never, not at all. Not as percentages, comp days or so-forth. Discounting Labor is Bad.
We sell labor only as day rates - period. If we have a travel day and that travel is only a half day (arrive at airport, fly and arrive at destination hotel), then we'll show a "0.5" in the units column of the proposal. The client has paid a half day against the full rate (e.g., $500 day X 0.5 = $250). It is paramount that the client feel that they're cared for, but that they know that there is a "system" for labor and that you will not deviate from same.
Discounting equipment, through various creative methods is fine - to a point. A producer's discount at 30%? Fine. A three-day week? No problem. Just know that every concession you make erodes your ability to negotiate future business with that client. By discounting too heavily, you also erode the market on-whole.
We sell labor only as day rates - period. If we have a travel day and that travel is only a half day (arrive at airport, fly and arrive at destination hotel), then we'll show a "0.5" in the units column of the proposal. The client has paid a half day against the full rate (e.g., $500 day X 0.5 = $250). It is paramount that the client feel that they're cared for, but that they know that there is a "system" for labor and that you will not deviate from same.
Discounting equipment, through various creative methods is fine - to a point. A producer's discount at 30%? Fine. A three-day week? No problem. Just know that every concession you make erodes your ability to negotiate future business with that client. By discounting too heavily, you also erode the market on-whole.
THE "SYSTEM"... or, our SYSTEM at least!
If you sell day rates, you must communicate the terms of the day rate to the client, in advance, in writing. If you want to show hourly rates, then do so - but do so with a minimum call indicated in writing (e.g., $100 / hour, 5 hour minimum, OT after 10 hours, DT after 12 hours).
Now, on the matter of how much an hour, please consider that I recently paid my plumber and electrician on my home remodel (one not licensed, one licensed) $50 and $75 an hour respectively for their efforts. The craftspeople I employ are infinitely more skilled than my plumber. I can unreservedly attest to this because we have three pipe fittings in the kitchen and basement which leak - after his latest visit.
Your relative skill plays into it, but there are market standards that should help you decide your rate. Undercut every other shooter in your market to $25 an hour and you might just find that that is all the market will bear five years later when you're worth $50 or $75 an hour. I've seen it happen.
Early on, we decided to operate labor based upon IATSE guidelines (though we're not exactly a signatory to the IA), which dictate overtime, turnaround, meal breaks and so forth. Even if you choose to waive any portion of the collective bargaining agreement "to get the shot", it is done "at will" without setting precedent.
There should never be an expectation that you'll do so, but flexibility goes a long way toward good relationships.
If you have a client who insists on, "...all I want to know is 'how much is it for the camera and a shooter?'", it is prudent to indicate that the camera is "flat" and the operator is at $/day to X hours. They must know in advance, in writing, the entire terms of your labor agreement. Any loophole you leave in this area goes to the favor of the client. Always.
Okay, I need more coffee, so I'll stay tuned to this thread and add more as the caffeine boost kicks in.
UNITED, WE WILL CRUSH THEM!
:kali:
Uh... maybe I've had enough already.
e
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SilverWolf
Veteran
Overland that is a great post and I will now adopt that as my policy as well
Nik Manning
Well-known member
Yes I agree overlandfilms great post. Do you have info on where to get word doc's or pdf's with this type of contractual jargon. That would really help us newcomers.
235 Studios
Veteran
Overland-
Well said- Thanks.
I can understand not wanting to turn clients away, but have you thought about future work with this client? Or what kind of reputation you may be building for yourself? If you charge $25 / hour (or whatever rate you decide) for this client on this project, they will have a hard time accepting a higher fee for the next project- if you were willing to work for that rate and they were happy, why should they pay you more for the same work? It is very rare that a client will decide that it is no all of the sudden ok to pay more for the same work.
The other thing you want to consider is what kind of reputation you are building for yourself- are you developing a name for yourself that says I deliver high quality work for next to nothing rates? If you develop this kind of rep. it will be hard for new clients to accept being charged more then your last client who told them about you and gave you the referral.
I'm sure that cost of living and the like are different in the UAE then here in the US. So that will play into the whole rate system. But you want to protect yourself, and your investment. Regardless of how many jobs you have, if you are not making enough money to pay your wages, maintain and replace your gear then you will not last long. You can't survive by selling at a loss - even if you sell a large quantity.
Well said- Thanks.
Digital Angel said:
I can understand not wanting to turn clients away, but have you thought about future work with this client? Or what kind of reputation you may be building for yourself? If you charge $25 / hour (or whatever rate you decide) for this client on this project, they will have a hard time accepting a higher fee for the next project- if you were willing to work for that rate and they were happy, why should they pay you more for the same work? It is very rare that a client will decide that it is no all of the sudden ok to pay more for the same work.
The other thing you want to consider is what kind of reputation you are building for yourself- are you developing a name for yourself that says I deliver high quality work for next to nothing rates? If you develop this kind of rep. it will be hard for new clients to accept being charged more then your last client who told them about you and gave you the referral.
I'm sure that cost of living and the like are different in the UAE then here in the US. So that will play into the whole rate system. But you want to protect yourself, and your investment. Regardless of how many jobs you have, if you are not making enough money to pay your wages, maintain and replace your gear then you will not last long. You can't survive by selling at a loss - even if you sell a large quantity.
Pro Gressive
Active member
Hey boys, Just wondering if we should put all of our heads together and come up with a txt document that we could all print out to use for this purpose? It could be something that our clients could sign and would hold up legally if you didnt get payed or they were putting off paying you. It could contain all the conditions of shooting and equipment costs, labor etc. This could then be modified for everyone since we are all in different parts of the world to suit the local standards and currency.
So far we have Labor and Equipment costs worked out. Your right about the price divided by 20 overlandfilms. These are being billed separately. Another section could be expensives such as travel or meal allowance.
Hmm now what about the "fine print"?
The concept of x amount for the first hr then x after that is a clever idea
Cheers
So far we have Labor and Equipment costs worked out. Your right about the price divided by 20 overlandfilms. These are being billed separately. Another section could be expensives such as travel or meal allowance.
Hmm now what about the "fine print"?
The concept of x amount for the first hr then x after that is a clever idea
Cheers
Learn industry business practices and rates.
Learn industry business practices and rates.
If you're "not doing this for the money", then you won't be doing it professionally for very long. I am doing this for the money, this business is how I make my living. Money does not magically appear in my bank account . I pay for my gear , insurance, vehicle ,taxes (uggh), mortgage and put food on the table through charging professional rates.
With due respect your approach is a set up for failure. Not trying to be harsh or flaming, but this attitude is what hurts this business and professionals who have been in it a lot longer than yourself. Sometimes you do have to turn business down, otherwise you feed into or create a precedent that will hurt yourself and others down the road. Many times you can negotiate what services a client will recieve rather than working cut rate. Think longer term, both for yourself and the industry.
As to the other (somebody elses) suggestion of shooting for an hourly rate... I'm not even sure where to start... The DV era has wrought more destruction on rates than anything I've seen. It is incredibly short sided to hire out for anything other than half or full day rates. Others have elaborated on that. The only upside is that those charging hourly won't be in business for very long. Unfortunately the ramifications of their unprofessional business practices will be with us for some time. The relatively low cost and high quality of DV gear has cultivated many a hobbyist and professional who are operating with business practices that are strictly amateur.
Newbe tip: Give at least as much attention to profit margins, ROI, overhead and operational costs as you would to buying the latest widget for your camera. It's not as much fun but just as important if not more so.
Half day, full day or NO WAY!
Learn industry business practices and rates.
troypod said:
If you're "not doing this for the money", then you won't be doing it professionally for very long. I am doing this for the money, this business is how I make my living. Money does not magically appear in my bank account . I pay for my gear , insurance, vehicle ,taxes (uggh), mortgage and put food on the table through charging professional rates.
With due respect your approach is a set up for failure. Not trying to be harsh or flaming, but this attitude is what hurts this business and professionals who have been in it a lot longer than yourself. Sometimes you do have to turn business down, otherwise you feed into or create a precedent that will hurt yourself and others down the road. Many times you can negotiate what services a client will recieve rather than working cut rate. Think longer term, both for yourself and the industry.
As to the other (somebody elses) suggestion of shooting for an hourly rate... I'm not even sure where to start... The DV era has wrought more destruction on rates than anything I've seen. It is incredibly short sided to hire out for anything other than half or full day rates. Others have elaborated on that. The only upside is that those charging hourly won't be in business for very long. Unfortunately the ramifications of their unprofessional business practices will be with us for some time. The relatively low cost and high quality of DV gear has cultivated many a hobbyist and professional who are operating with business practices that are strictly amateur.
Newbe tip: Give at least as much attention to profit margins, ROI, overhead and operational costs as you would to buying the latest widget for your camera. It's not as much fun but just as important if not more so.
Half day, full day or NO WAY!
I can admit when I'm wrong, and it seems to be an overwhelming majority stating that it's important to stick to your guns on any sort of equipment and labour costs. I do definitely see what all of you are saying.
I guess I'll just chalk it up as the inexperience of a newbie
The rates are now officially going up to where they should be
I guess I'll just chalk it up as the inexperience of a newbie
The rates are now officially going up to where they should be
235 Studios
Veteran
Eric Papa said:
I agree as well.
Many people will only charge a full day rate for shooting, as what are you going to do with the rest of the day? Working on set is a lot different then a 9 - 5 job. If something comes up while on set which delays you, you can't exactly say to your next production / client sorry I'm late, but we got delayed on the last project ...
Charging a half days rate for travel, or other non-shooting time is a good way to go. Just be careful on the half days rate- as it has been my expierence that there are very few actual half days when it comes to shooting. (Editing can be a different story.)
SilverWolf
Veteran
235 Studios said:
That's right on the money. If somebody wants you for a job between 10-2 and pretty much soils the rest of that day for any other jobs.
Pro Gressive
Active member
All of you are bringing up extremely good points! It would be good to hear about everyone's experiences with clients paying and when? Does anyone get them to sign something before the project starts? I have heard a lot of stories in my time about clients/ business's postponing paying for up to over a year!
As a shooter with my own HVX200 I can tell you the only thing I can say to the original post is....You get what you pay for. Plain and simple. When looking at reels, judge which DP's work is the best for your budget and take it from there. It really is that simple.
Steve
Steve