Arguments for HVX200 over 16mm

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The Sarlacc said:
I'm not even going to continue on the subject of waste. Because neither of have hard numbers or real knowledge to support any sort of real debate on the matter. I do know there are proper ways to dispose of film. And the "waste" does not really concern me. Your concern of waste will only disapate as digital projection comes to more and more theaters.

Sure...you can have camera problems that could harm the film...You could have camera problems within a video camera that will harm that footage as well.

Again, you have never worked with film. So, you would realize that when shoot film you do a proper checkout. And part of that checkout involves testing the camera with VIRGIN film running through. And running film through EACH mag. And then properly checking the film for scratches.

You also shoot registration tests and framing charts which would show if anything might "damaging" the film.

Yes, shi* can happen. And does. Buts its no different then video. Everything can go fine during a checkout, and then bam...heat failure. clogged heads, video drop outs, file corruption.

shi* happens mans.

Your arguments against film have absolutely no base. Let me know when you actuall get on a set a loader or AC and have dealt with raw celluloid, film cameras, and changing rooms. Handling film prints on print stocks is honestly nothing.

And I never said you said anything about set ups. It came up on tangent in my rant.

As for f-cking off...depends on the set.
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Okay now that I proved that I was right about the whole waste thing we can move off of it.

First off I handle film every day I work. I'm a projectionist, so I see it all. Infact if you want to see it in a screening room at the studios it has to go through me. So I know what I'm talking about when it comes to film. I don't have to shoot it to know what I'm talking about. I'm around it everyday. Plus I've been a projectionist for productions out on location and have spent most of those days sitting around on the set watching them shoot waiting for them to get done so they could watch dailies at lunch...or sometimes dinner. So I've seen camera problems and printing problems. For you to say that my argument has no base is very wong.

All I'm trying to say is if your going to go to TV or DVD. Hands down shoot on the HVX instead of S16 film. I mean are you crazy. People will never know...I'm sure you will and it would make you not want to buy whatever their selling. I've seen the HVX up on a 30' screen and it looks amazing. Better than any 16mm I've seen...projected on film.
 
Drew599 said:
Okay now that I proved that I was right about the whole waste thing we can move off of it.

First off I handle film every day I work. I'm a projectionist, so I see it all. Infact if you want to see it in a screening room at the studios it has to go through me. So I know what I'm talking about when it comes to film. I don't have to shoot it to know what I'm talking about. I'm around it everyday. Plus I've been a projectionist for productions out on location and have spent most of those days sitting around on the set watching them shoot waiting for them to get done so they could watch dailies at lunch...or sometimes dinner. So I've seen camera problems and printing problems. For you to say that my argument has no base is very wong.

All I'm trying to say is if your going to go to TV or DVD. Hands down shoot on the HVX instead of S16 film. I mean are you crazy. People will never know...I'm sure you will and it would make you not want to buy whatever their selling. I've seen the HVX up on a 30' screen and it looks amazing. Better than any 16mm I've seen...projected on film.
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You have not proved me wrong. We have both failed to prove anything worthy of mentioning to make a coherent arguement.

I'm glad you are projectionist. I've been in my fair share of projection booths over the years. I'm well aware of what they look like and how much celluloid passes through.

You have NOT been a part of film camera crew nor have you done a proper check out on a film camera. Have you even touched one?

Printing problems are not an error on the negative, and another print can be struck.
Camera problems can happen. But they happen about as often as problems with video cameras. You project...your projectors have the potential to f-ck up the prints you run through it about as much any camera, and I'll bet if the projectors are in good running order then you don't have any issues other then user error.

Anything that is mechanical or electronic has the potential to fail.

I'll say it again. You're arguments have no base.
 
PS. Ever seen Scrubs?

Shot on super16 transfered to HD. Most people think the show is 35mm.

Get a good out put of that and project next to an HVX.

Have you projected final release prints of 16? or just one lite or best lite dailies which tend to NEVER look good, even with 35...and we both know that.
 
Just out of curiosity, some recent films shot on Super 16mm:

The Station Agent
Fuji F-64D, F-250D and Kodak 7274 for night interiors and exteriors
Aaton and Zeiss Superspeeds
http://www.apple.com/trailers/miramax/the_station_agent/

* Excellent movie by the way ...

The Squid and the Whale
Kodak 7218 (500T) and 7246 (250D)
Zeiss Superspeed lenses
http://www.apple.com/trailers/independent/thesquidandthewhale/trailer/

Interview with cinematographer Robert Yeoman

Did you consider shooting HD?
"There are good things about HD, but it wasn’t right for this film. I was considering HD for a commercial a while ago and we shot a test on 16 and HD. I really was impressed with how well the HD held up. And I went
to see Collateral and it looked great. It sparked my interest in HD again.
I’m still a little worried about HD in bright conditions, though. If you’re
shooting with uncontrolled lighting on a sunny day, you can get a lot of contrast, and my fear with HD was that the highlights would just go to video noise. Also, the cameras still have a lot of cables and all that, and if I’m running around streets or the subway, I don’t want to be tied to some deck. But with the SR, you’ve got your little battery—you flip it in there and you’re ready to roll. "

Junebug
Kodak 7218 (500T)
Aaton A-Minima and Arri SR3 - Zeiss Superspeed set
http://www.apple.com/trailers/sony/junebug.html

The camera crew used an ARRIFLEX 16SR-3 with Zeiss Superspeed prime lenses. For four days they used two cameras to cover scenes with different focal lengths and angles. To avoid the conventional angles in car scenes, the DP Peter Donahue used an Aaton A-Minima, the tiny Super 16mm camera.

"It isn't much bigger than a football," he says. "It's very easily handheld, which is how I did all the car scenes. I can hold it just like I might hold a camcorder. For me it was all freedom. I'd just wedge myself in, usually in the back seat, and get interesting shots."


The Ballad of Jack and Rose
ARRI 16SR3s with a set of zooms and a Canon wide-angle lens.
Kodak 7128 (500T)
http://www.apple.com/trailers/independent/theballadofjackandrose.html

Some more info on Super 16mm as a new alternative for indie filmmakers:

http://www.moviemaker.com/issues/58/super16.html
 
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The Sarlacc said:
You have not proved me wrong. We have both failed to prove anything worthy of mentioning to make a coherent arguement.

I'm glad you are projectionist. I've been in my fair share of projection booths over the years. I'm well aware of what they look like and how much celluloid passes through.

You have NOT been a part of film camera crew nor have you done a proper check out on a film camera. Have you even touched one?

Printing problems are not an error on the negative, and another print can be struck.
Camera problems can happen. But they happen about as often as problems with video cameras. You project...your projectors have the potential to f-ck up the prints you run through it about as much any camera, and I'll bet if the projectors are in good running order then you don't have any issues other then user error.

Anything that is mechanical or electronic has the potential to fail.

I'll say it again. You're arguments have no base.
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Believe it or not I don't have to be on a film camera crew to know what I'm talking about. You my feel that I have no base to my argument but that is your opinion. Also I have touched a film camera, a 35mm Panavision, I even got to hold the beast and run it a little. Like that has anything to do with what we'er talking about here.

See in my last post I was trying to wrap up this little thing because I know I had made my point...that the HVX should be used instead of S16 for this project. Plus I think film camera crews have a problem with projectionists. I have run plenty of dailies where the film was shot soft and the people down in the screening room were yelling back to me to focus their picture. After they realized that its there camera crews fault the yelling quickly shifts. This happened on a big show not an indy. "Training Day".

Camera problems happen more in film cameras than in digital ones. That's what I have seen. Like I say before I have seen an entire day ruined because everyone thought the film camera was working fine. With a digital camera you could always check and make sure right there on the set. I'm sure problems happen with digital cameras not working at all. But at least you know it isn't working instead of shooting thinking your getting usable footage.
 
Drew599 said:
Believe it or not I don't have to be on a film camera crew to know what I'm talking about. You my feel that I have no base to my argument but that is your opinion. Also I have touched a film camera, a 35mm Panavision, I even got to hold the beast and run it a little. Like that has anything to do with what we're talking about here. Admittedly focus can be a camera issue if you have an issue with phlange focal distance (similar to back focus issue on HD.) Or if there is a pressure plate problem on a mag with super16...but that is checked by techs prior to a cameras going out in the field.

See in my last post I was trying to wrap up this little thing because I know I had made my point...that the HVX should be used instead of S16 for this project. Plus I think film camera crews have a problem with projectionists. I have run plenty of dailies where the film was shot soft and the people down in the screening room were yelling back to me to focus their picture. After they realized that its there camera crews fault the yelling quickly shifts. This happened on a big show not an indy. "Training Day".

Camera problems happen more in film cameras than in digital ones. That's what I have seen. Like I say before I have seen an entire day ruined because everyone thought the film camera was working fine. With a digital camera you could always check and make sure right there on the set. I'm sure problems happen with digital cameras not working at all. But at least you know it isn't working instead of shooting thinking your getting usable footage.
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Are you seriously kidding me??? You're going to dispute focus as film camera issue??? Bad focus is Bad focus regardless of weather its film or hd, and its NOT a camera problem. It is an error of the 1st AC, and happens to us all. The film camera CAN cause a focus issue if the phlange focal depth is off with 35mm or if the pressure plate on a mag is off with super16. But these are things that are checked by techs prior to the equpiments release. Its very rare that these become issues on set. And the camera crew wouldnt be yelled at for it. I highly doubt you have ever seen this issue before.

Yeah...HD camera NEVER have back focus issues.

And any AC may face focus issues shooting on the long end of zoom or telephoto prime with the aperture wide open.

Camera problems with film cameras do not happen MORE often then with Digital cameras. And you dont think people shoot digital and think everything is fine only to find out some kind of an issue, such as a drop out, after the fact?

You are seriously starting to reach here. Being a part of a camera crew, and working with film means gaining a comfort level with it, understanding it, and knowing more about it then a projectionist sitting in a booth splicing reels together and performing changeovers.

You sound like disgruntled projectionist from getting yelled on shows...deal with it. It happens to everyone.

But again you are just showing you don't really know what you are talking about, and I am putting everything on the table. I am not hiding the flaws of film...but HD has similar flaws...and new ones all its own.
 
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The Sarlacc said:
Are you seriously kidding me??? You're going to dispute focus as film camera issue??? Bad focus is Bad focus regardless of weather its film or hd, and its NOT a camera problem. It is an error of the 1st AC, and happens to us all.

Yeah...HD camera NEVER have back focus issues.

And any AC may face focus issues shooting on the long end of zoom or telephoto prime with the aperture wide open.

Camera problems with film cameras do not happen MORE often then with Digital cameras. And you dont think people shoot digital and think everything is fine only to find out some kind of an issue, such as a drop out, after the fact?

You are seriously starting to reach here. Being a part of a camera crew, and working with film means gaining a comfort level with it, understanding it, and knowing more about it then a projectionist sitting in a booth splicing reels together and performing changeovers.

You sound like disgruntled projectionist from getting yelled on shows...deal with it. It happens to everyone.

But again you are just showing you don't really know what you are talking about.
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I brought up the whole focus issue to show you that a film camera crew isn't flawless.

Okay so you can have a drop out on a digital camera. I'm talking about losing the entire day because the FILM camera wasn't working right. Lets see a couple of frames unusable vs a whole day down the toilet. Which cost more? Are you going to do re-shoots for a drop out. If you did your job correctly you would have gotten a couple takes just incase something like this happens. But if there is a FILM camera problem that happens and no one catches it until the next day during dailies what are you going to have to do...that's right, re-shoot. Last time I checked re-shoots cost way more money than cutting to a different take on the digital footage.

I have no doubt that you know more about shooting film than I do. But is that what this whole thing has been about. No, its about what is better. The HVX or S16 film. Now this would be a part where I have more experience on the whole thing. Because believe me I see way more product that you do. Projected in its final form where all this judging goes on.

Also for the record I kickass at my job. That's the reason I can go anywhere and work.
 
Drew599 said:
I brought up the whole focus issue to show you that a film camera crew isn't flawless.

Okay so you can have a drop out on a digital camera. I'm talking about losing the entire day because the FILM camera wasn't working right. Lets see a couple of frames unusable vs a whole day down the toilet. Which cost more? Are you going to do re-shoots for a drop out. If you did your job correctly you would have gotten a couple takes just incase something like this happens. But if there is a FILM camera problem that happens and no one catches it until the next day during dailies what are you going to have to do...that's right, re-shoot. Last time I checked re-shoots cost way more money than cutting to a different take on the digital footage.

I have no doubt that you know more about shooting film than I do. But is that what this whole thing has been about. No, its about what is better. The HVX or S16 film. Now this would be a part where I have more experience on the whole thing. Because believe me I see way more product that you do. Projected in its final form where all this judging goes on.

Also for the record I kickass at my job. That's the reason I can go anywhere and work.
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The focus issue is a horrible example because it can happen to film or HD. Video can hide slightly soft focus better then Film, especially when its dumped down to SD.

You can have an entire day of HD footage wasted or lost just the same as film. Different circumstances, same results.

What is best for the project is whatever the company is willing to pay for be it Super16 or HD. In case you've ignored my other posts, he stated the option to shoot film wasnt for him, the job would go to someone. So, I listed how to present his argument against film. I can make the arguement go both ways.

I have seen my fair share of projected images. In fact I just latest work of the newest kodak stocks, the newest arri scanner, and arri laser...and its quite frankly AMAZING and will shame a camera like the HVX in comparison tests. It holds better resolution and latitude then any HD camera. That is fact.

I never said you werent a good projectionist, doesnt mean you arent pissed with getting yelled at by ACs who made mistakes...human mistakes which can cost them their jobs sadly.
 
Someone pm a moderator before the bullets start flying. ;-)
Can't we all just get along?

The Station Agent is one of my favorite films of the last five years. The Squid and the Whale was good too --- very grainy, but good (I still hate the ending though). And i LOVE Scrubs!

I watched "The New World" last night --- something everyone here should see. Beautiful.

P.S.: I apologize in advance if this "movie-talk" hijacks the thread. But would it be such a bad thing?
 
You are trying to tell me digital is more reliable and stable then film, and such is not the case. I've had gear go down with both mediums. One isnt any better then the other in regards to that.

And with that. That arguement has come full circle, and I have to get to set for a night shoot.
 
darwinandpaine said:
P.S.: I apologize in advance if this "movie-talk" hijacks the thread. But would it be such a bad thing?
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The New World is one of the best films of last year. I happen to catch it before Malick took it bag and recut the movie. Simply stunning and mmakes me loves the work of Lubezki even more then I already do.
 
The Sarlacc said:
The focus issue is a horrible example because it can happen to film or HD. Video can hide slightly soft focus better then Film, especially when its dumped down to SD.

You can have an entire day of HD footage wasted or lost just the same as film. Different circumstances, same results.

What is best for the project is whatever the company is willing to pay for be it Super16 or HD. In case you've ignored my other posts, he stated the option to shoot film wasnt for him, the job would go to someone. So, I listed how to present his argument against film. I can make the arguement go both ways.

I have seen my fair share of projected images. In fact I just latest work of the newest kodak stocks, the newest arri scanner, and arri laser...and its quite frankly AMAZING and will shame a camera like the HVX in comparison tests. It holds better resolution and latitude then any HD camera. That is fact.

I never said you werent a good projectionist, doesnt mean you arent pissed with getting yelled at by ACs who made mistakes...human mistakes which can cost them their jobs sadly.
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I wasn't pissed at getting yelled at because the focus was soft. It was just retarded because they could see durning me racking the focus it was never in focus. Plus I don't get yelled at by ACs, are you kidding.

The situation that would exist for you to lose an entire day of HD shooting would be someone destorying all the tapes or back-up drives you had. Not just pure oversight.

darwinandpaine, I thought this was a place to discuse things about the HVX. The line was crossed a couple times but I don't think anyone is all broken up about it.
 
Someone mentioned earlier that people won't noticed it's digital when downrezzed to SD for DVD/TV application.

That's BS. Even if you use the 35mm adapter, not all parts are going to look like super sixteen. And it's even worse if you use the HVX minus an adapter. The audience WILL recognize it as "weird looking".
 
Drew599 said:
darwinandpaine, I thought this was a place to discuse things about the HVX. The line was crossed a couple times but I don't think anyone is all broken up about it.
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Yeah, but see...? You're still so amped up that you apparently didn't see the winky face next to my comment. The winky face means, "friendly joke" (which may, or may not, have a grain of truth to it?).

I do get worried though, when people start psychologizing the person they're debating and trying to find some alternate motive for their arguments rather than taking their points at face value. Not that I'm broken up about it or anything...
 
Drew599 said:
The situation that would exist for you to lose an entire day of HD shooting would be someone destorying all the tapes or back-up drives you had. Not just pure oversight.
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This is not true. I was a tech for a short while prior to deciding I needed to return to freelance. I teched the F900, DVX, Varicam and SD900 among others.

I saw a lot of problems come back from the field where the issue wasn't discovered until they were on set, or the next day during while watching dailies.

This ranged from problems with the actual optical block, loose solder connections in the sound boards. Internal boards frying, problems with the electronics in the lenses.

I'll say it again. Whether it be mechanical or electronics they are ALL prone to failure, and in all my years of experience I wouldn't venture to say one was any more reliable then the other. **** happens.
 
Kholi said:
Someone mentioned earlier that people won't noticed it's digital when downrezzed to SD for DVD/TV application.

That's BS. Even if you use the 35mm adapter, not all parts are going to look like super sixteen. And it's even worse if you use the HVX minus an adapter. The audience WILL recognize it as "weird looking".
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Most people will not notice the difference to be honest.

The regular person does not have their eyes trained to notice the subtle differences, nor do they care. It can be very frustrating, and its one thing that has hindered out right acceptance of HD into homes...doesn't help the industry causes mass confusion with multiple formats and proprietary systems competeing for supremacy.
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The Sarlacc said:
Most people will not notice the difference to be honest.

The regular person does not have their eyes trained to notice the subtle differences, nor do they care. It can be very frustrating, and its one thing that has hindered out right acceptance of HD into homes...doesn't help the industry causes mass confusion with multiple formats and proprietary systems competeing for supremacy.
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This is so true! Most people have shockingly low standards when it comes to video and can't tell DVX 24p from 35mm, let alone 1080p from an HVX. I have a dear friend (a videographer, no less) who bought a big, new, widescreen, LCD for the bedroom and had me over to show it off (the LCD, not the bedroom). He ended up getting some ED piece of crap that looks awful. My point? If someone who shoots doesn't even know a crappy image when they see it, what hope is there for the great unwashed?

And you're right, Sarlacc --- I think that fact really has hindered the adoption of HDTV. People don't care, 'cuz they can't tell the difference. Ahhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!
 
People can't tell the difference...but that won't stop them from being good little consumers. Whenever I go to most theaters I find it amazing that people just settle for such a bad presentation of a film they just paid $9 to see. I think if people were taught to expect more out of going to the movies they would ask for a better presentation not to mention better movies.

Darwinandpaine, the whole converstation that was going on in this post was very laughable. I like having discussions like this about film and HD. Its funny because no one wants to back down an inch. Doesn't really make anything more along quickly but its good for some entertainment. Also take it easy with that whole PMing a mod thing. Don't get me wrong, I love DVXuser. But there have been plenty of times I didn't agree with the way certain things were handled.
 
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Drew599 said:
Darwinandpaine, the whole converstation that was going on in this post was very laughable. I like having discussions like this about film and HD. Its funny because no one wants to back down an inch. Doesn't really make anything more along quickly but its good for some entertainment. Also take it easy with that whole PMing a mod thing. Don't get me wrong, I love DVXuser. But there have been plenty of times I didn't agree with the way certain things were handled.
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I'm with you all the way. And again, just a joke. I hate Nazi's almost as much as I hate those people who prefer HD100s and XLH1s. They disgust me! ;-)
 
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