new shootout! HVX200 versus....hvx200! deathmatch!

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Well I think you guys have convinced me to join the dark side. I have had canons for years but I always had a secret dvx100a fetish. I would have gone panny from the start if all the stores didn't miraculously run out of AG-DVC30s.

Those frames that Anton posted look amazing. I would be happy with footage like that. :)

I have been deciding between the 3 popular hd/hdv camcorders. The h1 kind of did it's self in with the 9k price tag which buys you a hvd camera. Granted, it makes a pretty sharp picture but I rather have DVCPRO-HD. Hd100 was close but I saw the post by Berry Green that compared two shots from the hvx and hd100 and it was shocking how much detail was rendered from the hvx. I also want optical stabilization. What really got my head spinning was this post: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=53982

I seriously could see myself in the same position as Icicle22. That is why I asked about the xl1s compared to the hvx even though icicle's post refers to an xl2. I know the xl2 is sweet... but I wouldn't think there would be a "wow" factor going from xl1s to xl2. I could be wrong but their both sd.

Anyhow thanks for knocking me off the fence but I will be sure to blame you all when my family sees the footage and says "you paid 6k for that" and I answer "no, 8k with p2 cards and yes".

Never the less, I appreciate your words of wisdom.
 
Again, after trying these cameras on different LCDs, not just the 2405, I believe what we are seeing is noise levels from these cameras, not noise added from the LCD itself.

What I do believe is happening is somehow LCDs are able to display noise easier than other monitor types. I sure we all can agree to this.

I don't believe it's enhancing it, but somehow makes it more visible.

If anything, granted the 2405 is not a color accurate monitor, we can use it to baseline noise levels.
If we can make the noise levels reasonable on the 2405, they will be that much better viewed on other
monitor types.
 
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When I was looking for a cheap monitor to edit on, I considered the 2405. After asking around, I was told by a xbox360 player that the dell won't do HD over component. He said it upconverts the signal. Look into it.

Barry_Green said:
I ran into something tonight that has me almost CONVINCED that the "problem" has nothing to do with the HVX, but rather the Dell 2405 -- at least for those who are having a bad experience, and who happen to be viewing their footage on the 2405.

The Dell is a hideous monitor for video. Or, at least, it works hideously when combined with the HVX, that's for sure.

I brought in some HVX scene file pictures into the computer for the HVX Book, and changed their DPI in photoshop etc (so they're now in the computer domain, even though they're pixel-for-pixel identical to what the camera recorded). Looked pretty good. But I wanted to make sure that there wasn't some sort of gamma shift going on (as happens with NTSC and computer monitors and printouts, etc). So I set the Dell up in side-by-side picture-in-picture mode, brought up the Vegas timeline on the right, and the live component feed on the left.

The difference was stunning. The computer mode looked great, the live component feed looked absolutely hideous. Grainy and posterized and just plain terrible, by comparison.

Same monitor. Same footage. Difference was whether it was taking the input through the analog component inputs, or through the HDMI. The HDMI side looked great. The "video" side was awful.

So I thought "well, it must be the picture-in-picture mode that's doing it", so I set the component inputs back to full-screen mode. Nope, it was just as horrid.

My digital still camera broke, so I don't really have a way to show you guys the difference, but it would be enough for anyone to forever abandon the idea of using the 2405 as a video monitor (through its component inputs).

If anyone out there is upset about how their HVX footage looks, and they're viewing it on a Dell 2405, don't blame the camera, blame the monitor's video inputs. The Dell makes a great computer monitor, but a hideous video monitor.
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A good test for you guys (that have one) is take a DVX and hook it up to the dell.. you would be surprised.

I use the dell too.. i love it. Its just not a good reference monitor for anything other than focus. I was editing over at Evin Grants last night and he has a 20" CRT sony HD-SDI monitor in his bay.. and i was amazed at the difference.

The HVX has noise though.. And as Adam Wilt said, no more than others. Most people though love the footage though, noise or no noise, so thats all that should matter.
 
Jarred Land said:
he has a 20" CRT sony HD-SDI monitor
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That's cool for color correction, but no consumer is going to have one.

The Beatles checked their audio mixes on car stereos, so it stands to reason that looking at footage on consumer Plasmas, LCD's and DLP's etc. is a reasonable way to check what people will ultimately see.

I think the original poster has an interesting idea in trying to see if all the HVX's have the same noise levels.
 
joelnet said:
I think the original poster has an interesting idea in trying to see if all the HVX's have the same noise levels.
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That's my thought. Some people see a lot and others see none.
Objectivity is ALWAYS a factor, but I am wondering if some HVX's just have more noise then others?
 
steindj said:
I remember a couple of the threads ending with the satisfied customers telling the dissatisfieds, "Yeah, you're right there's noise there, but what do you expect from a $6,000 1/3" CCD camera? Work with the camera settings, light your scenes well and the problem should be minimal."
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But IF (and it's a big if) this was a quality control issue, then that proves nothing, because the 'noise' that each person is seeing is different. So one person seeing it as objectionable, and the other as "what's the fuss?" doesn't imply bad judgement on either party - rather that they are seeing different things.

And it's only by getting one or two 'dissatisfieds' together with one or two 'satisfieds' that we're ever going to move on.

Jarred says "Most people though love the footage though, noise or no noise, so thats all that should matter." and that's true enough IF ALL CAMERAS ARE EQUAL. But what if they're not? What if there are some substandard models? Don't we then owe it to the owners of those models to sort this issue out?

On the other hand all the models may be found equal, and then yes, as "most people love the footage though", then again yes, that is indeed all that matters and the 'dissatisfieds' may just be seen as a hypercritical minority. But it needs to be tested in a practical scientific way, not just speculated about in words.

We've had SD digital broadcasting in the UK for a while now, and it's generally acknowledged that bitrates are far lower than desirable. Generally, watching on a 32" widescreen CRT I'm happy most of the time, though fades especially are not happy with the level of compression applied. But watch the same broadcasts on the HDready TVs now becoming popular and they look dreadful. On the same sets that look fantastic when fed true HD demos in the shops, and pretty good even with ordinary DVDs. The conclusion I've come to is not that these TVs are no good. Quite the opposite - they're so good that they show up many of the flaws of the compression that a CRT mostly 'masks'.

brianluce said:
i followed the noise thread closely. the people who complained about noise sure didn't sound like weekend warriors, neither did the people who said the hvx is hunky dory. point being, i just can't believe it's a subjective eye of the beholder issue. nor a monitor issue.
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My thoughts exactly. Which is why 'all HVXs aren't equal' is a theory which makes sense - everybody's right!! And which is why it's a theory which needs to be practically tested, not just endlessly discussed in theory. Why both viewpoints need to come together face to face rather than via the net.
 
harddrive said:
My thoughts exactly. Which is why 'all HVXs aren't equal' is a theory which makes sense - everybody's right!! And which is why it's a theory which needs to be practically tested, not just endlessly discussed in theory. Why both viewpoints need to come together face to face rather than via the net.
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DC had set up an HVX User group in the LA area, and he was talking about having the first meeting sometime in May. Perhaps, those of us in the area could get together and actually do this test --- in the name of scientific purity.
 
harddrive said:
But IF (and it's a big if) this was a quality control issue, then that proves nothing, because the 'noise' that each person is seeing is different. So one person seeing it as objectionable, and the other as "what's the fuss?" doesn't imply bad judgement on either party - rather that they are seeing different things.

And it's only by getting one or two 'dissatisfieds' together with one or two 'satisfieds' that we're ever going to move on.

Jarred says "Most people though love the footage though, noise or no noise, so thats all that should matter." and that's true enough IF ALL CAMERAS ARE EQUAL. But what if they're not? What if there are some substandard models? Don't we then owe it to the owners of those models to sort this issue out?

On the other hand all the models may be found equal, and then yes, as "most people love the footage though", then again yes, that is indeed all that matters and the 'dissatisfieds' may just be seen as a hypercritical minority. But it needs to be tested in a practical scientific way, not just speculated about in words.
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PERFECT!!!!
 
Okay, this is going around in circles. One more time, I'm NOT opposed to a meeting to resolve the issue. Just predicting:

1. No major quality control blunders by Panny. The accusation itself is outrageous. (Poor Jan must be pulling her hair out reading this stuff.)

2. There will still be two camps. What could change is some of the dissatisfieds discussing a move to other cameras (H1, HD100, etc.) despite the fact that they all have similar levels of noise, as Barry found in his test.

My guess is that there were a lot of unreasonable expectations built up before the release of this camera, and reality is setting in sooner for some than others.
 
steindj said:
prediction:

1. No major quality control blunders by Panny. The accusation itself is outrageous. (Poor Jan must be pulling her hair out reading this stuff.)



why though? i've owned both the JVC DV500 (early adoptor) and now the HD100, and BOTH cameras had glitches that affect some but not ALL of the units! and jvc and panny both come from the same parent company.
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steindj said:
1. No major quality control blunders by Panny. The accusation itself is outrageous. (Poor Jan must be pulling her hair out reading this stuff.)
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Outrageous? I don't think so. I love my HVX and have no such concerns, but companies as big or bigger than Panasonic have had quality control issues --- Microsoft with the XB360, Apple with iPod batteries, Record Companies with Celine Dion, etc... Being a member of this forum does not require an oath of blind loyalty. If there was some sort of problem, and you had one of the cameras with the problem, I think you'd want to know. Nothing outrageous about it.

Personally, I tend to doubt it. But having some sort of test like this would certainly put the issue to bed for many of us. And, it's not a personal attack on Jan. Some of us, like myself, genuinely don't understand all the fuss about noise. I'd love to get together with the people who are concerned and try to understand what they're talking about. Then, we might be able to say with some assurance that either there really are problems with some units, or, that some people have unrealistic expectations or an unwarranted hypersensitivity to the "noise." More knowledge is never a bad thing.
 
John Rivers said:
I wonder if people just posted stills of 5 second clips of their HVX recording for a few seconds with the "lens cap" on, whether that would give us some evidence of the noise issue. It's about as standardized as you can get I think.

Would that work?
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Well, I certainly get lots of noise with the lens cap on!

Anyway, I'm volunteering for an HVX shootout in the LA area. We can meet at a circuit city or something ant test on all the TVs we want... or I can bring my much-maligned 2405.

I'm not fully decided on HVX noise yet... still testing, and getting anamolous results even with one camera. It seems to be not too bad when I do a black balance very frequently, and extremely noisy when I forget... though I'm not sure, 'cause it depends on forgetting, and I forget more than one thing at a time. My testing is during live events when I'm running the DVX as well, so it gets hectic and the testing is low priority.
 
steindj said:
Just predicting:

1. No major quality control blunders by Panny. The accusation itself is outrageous. (Poor Jan must be pulling her hair out reading this stuff.)
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Not outrageous at all. And not necessarily any 'blunders' by anybody. When you're developing ANY new product with cutting edge technology, any company is going to have to overcome many issues, and they may tax the most talented teams. Let's keep open minds.

But what are the other explanations? That a significant number of people who seem to post in a well balanced way are prepared to criticise a product that they were looking forward to getting, and have spent a lot of money on, for no real reason? Or that the many HVX users who don't consider there's a problem (Barry and Jarred amongst them) are just uncritical viewers? Both of those alternatives seem far more outrageous to me. Or can anyone think of a fourth and better explanation?

And if Jan (or anyone from Panasonic) is reading this, and if there is no QC issue, then why not simply come on board and unequivocably state that? If true, wouldn't that be in their best interests? An HVX shootout may be the only way to get closer to a generally accepted truth.
 
This is going in circles. I've already sent PM's to both Evinsky and Haakon to try to get them together, as that would probably be the definitive group.

And Ullanta has just volunteered.

And we'll have HVX footage and dozens (if not hundreds) of DVXUser members all together on Monday evening.

So instead of theorizing, let's just actually put it to the test and await real-world results.
 
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