new shootout! HVX200 versus....hvx200! deathmatch!

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steindj said:
I strongly suspect that its 2/ (provided we find truly neutral observers).
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You may be right, but I'm keeping an open mind. I take your point about neutral observers, but even if 2/ and 3/ couldn't be reconciled, at least whether or not situation 1/ exists could either be proven or dismissed. Some sort of test of this sort is worth it for that alone, isn't it?
 
harddrive said:
It really needs people to get together with their cameras and monitoring gear, with some neutral observers, and I'd suggest some other makes of camera as a 'control'. I would expect one of three possible outcomes:

1/ Significant differences between cameras, and everybody agreeing a quality control issue.
2/ The 'neutral observers' saying to the complainants "you're making a fuss about THAT"!
3/The 'neutral observers' saying to the satisfied users "you don't think THAT is a problem!?"

If 2 or 3 then the issue gets settled once and for all and most people can forget about it. If 1/ then at least everybody is in agreement, and the affected users will know they have a genuine greivance and hopefully be able to get the units fixed. Whatever, we can all move on from simply debating it ad nauseum, whilst proving nothing.
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I LIKE THIS, BUT I'M NOT SURE IF THEY NEED TO BE NEUTRAL OBSERVERS. WE JUST NEED REAL OWNERS TOGETHER WITH OPPOSITE OPINIONS DECIDING IF IT'S ABOUT CERTAIN CAMERAS WITH TECHNICAL ISSUES OR JUST A DISAGREEMENT ABOUT WHAT IS OR IS NOT ACCEPTABLE. ANYONE NEAR CT WHO HAS NO NOISE ISSUES???
 
guys, it totally works... if 2 and 3 agree that both images look the same regardless of wether they think that is good or bad , problem solved !
-A
 
I have been considering a hvx200 but I keep running into these noise threads. In my line of work, I don't always have the option of controlled lighting and so I have been trying to figure out if this is a "real" problem or just a simple imperfection.

I am sure different monitors will show it better then others but I would think there would be some level of neutrality. I am just trying to figure out if it is better then maybe an xl1s. I have a lot of xp with the xl1s and if there is anyone out there that has used both, I would appreciate the feedback :)

I mean will the hd quality from the hvx have any kind of "wow" factor or should I just stick with the sd xl1s. I do not currently need HD but I really want get my feet wet in some new technology. I am also looking for that "wow" factor to impress future clients too.
 
JonathanNelson said:
I have been considering a hvx200 but I keep running into these noise threads. In my line of work, I don't always have the option of controlled lighting and so I have been trying to figure out if this is a "real" problem or just a simple imperfection.
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It's someone like Jonathan who I think would fit the part of "neutral observer" extremely well. No axe to grind either way, and will be happy if the "noise issue" turns out to be a will o'the wisp (can then go ahead with purchase with confidence), but equally will be concerned enough not to dismiss any problem out of hand (doesn't want to buy a camera with a problem).

And if there is a quality control issue, then there's unlikely to be any further doubt or argument, even amongst those there. It's time this was settled once and for all. If there's a problem, it should be brought into the open, end of story. If there isn't, then let's finally put the damaging rumours to bed. Because in the situation at present, Jonathans situation ("shall I, shan't I? Is noise an issue?) is being repeated many times over, all over the world.
 
It really doesn't matter who the observer is as long as he/she can discern if there is a visual difference between two side by side images (same frame) on the same monitor. We already know that some of us like the noise and others don't. what we don't know is if there are differences from camera to camera.
Aloha
-A
 
Poi Boy said:
It really doesn't matter who the observer is as long as he/she can discern if there is a visual difference between two side by side images (same frame) on the same monitor. We already know that some of us like the noise and others don't. what we don't know is if there are differences from camera to camera.
Aloha
-A
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I AGREE 100%
 
I am using a Sony TFT (SDM HS73) and a Philips LCD/TV 42" (42PF9830) and (all) the footage looks WOW!

About the noise:
I am quit happy with the footage:

pool.jpg



adam.jpg


__________
Anton.
 
Make sure when you guys do it, that people keep their opinions to themselves until all of people observing has decided and written it down.

It may sound overly complicated and stupid, but trust me (having used to do psych research) that confirmation bias can screw up everything. You get one person who insists on something, and suddenly people start seeing noise where they didn't before, or no noise where they thought they saw it initially. Just a mess.

And use more than 2 cameras if possible. Like 4 or something (and ideally, the ones being set up will have been bought at different points in time, so we cover the whole HVX range, but that could be difficult to achieve).
 
thefilmaddict said:
I AGREE 100%
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i followed the noise thread closely. the people who complained about noise sure didn't sound like weekend warriors, neither did the people who said the hvx is hunky dory. point being, i just can't believe it's a subjective eye of the beholder issue. nor a monitor issue.
 
John,
All that matters is that people agree that the two images look the same or they don't look the same ! this is a no brainer to judge, there is no psych involved. But yes, by all means, get as many cameras as possible.
-A
 
Poi Boy said:
John,
All that matters is that people agree that the two images look the same or they don't look the same ! this is a no brainer to judge, there is no psych involved. But yes, by all means, get as many cameras as possible.
-A
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Surely there will be a ton of HVX's at NAB, right? With just 2 monitors you could do side by side elimination where the noisiest camera wins one round and the cleanest camera wins the next round. Then show the noisiest and cleanest side by side - is there really a difference? If so, there's a hardware issue going on there. If not... then the noise is in the eye (or monitor) of the beholder.
 
I don't think that works, you have to somehow do a split screen on the same monitor otherwise there will always be the monitor variable.
-A
 
some, if not most on PC, HVX footage has noise issues (ants) on lcds that you dont see on crts
 
I'd be interested in doing the side by side comparsion with any Orlando/Florida people.


I do think the Dell is really showing the negative stuff here.. and it has a lag. I shot some stuff the other night that looked so pristine in the LCD, on the viewfinder.. and on a large screen TV through the SD RCA ports, but on the Dell... there's the darn noise. I'm viewing it through the DVI port as a computer monitor and it just makes me a bit sick... However, when it's downconverted to DVD.. Looks breathtaking on my 54 inch TV.

What gives? I do want to check out my footage on a native HD plama or CRT as soon as I can. On the Marshall it looks awesome but that's a 7'. Man, this noise business won't go away.. and I thought I had it dialed in... BOO BOO...

Would be the best thing in the world if it's just the Dell, but now I have to go out and buy a big old fashioned CRT, which I planned on doing anyway... Maybe a Sony HD monitor...

Anymore advice on the using the Dell through the DVI ports?

I also noticed it the most on some timelapses that I did off the moon where you can really see the gradiant around the moon and how it looks all blocky... There's also kind of a lag at times and that sucks.

Glad I got the Dell for the computer stuff, but now it's making me really question the results I'm getting out of FCP through the DVI. What looks glorious in the camera and on an SD TV doesn't look that good because of the noise... Maybe I'm a bit hyperfocus of it... but then again it's not always there. just on some stuff that has a wide lattitude. Stuff that's flat and bright looks great.. But when there's lattitude and a range of brightness/contrast.. I just see the noise... darn noise..


So, what's the word from the powers that be.. Seems like a lot of people are in this dillema... of not knowing what is the result and cause...
 
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harddrive said:
Some sort of test of this sort is worth it for that alone, isn't it?
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Sure, but I think to some extent this difference in view has already worked itself out as your 2/ scenario, especially if you go back and read some of the noise threads.

I remember a couple of the threads ending with the satisfied customers telling the dissatisfieds, "Yeah, you're right there's noise there, but what do you expect from a $6,000 1/3" CCD camera? Work with the camera settings, light your scenes well and the problem should be minimal."

Still, I look forward to hearing about what comes out of whatever meeting is set up. I'm betting that a clear consensus on what's going on ain't gonna happen.
 
I'm in LA and I have an HVX and a Dell 2405 Monitor. I am willing to meet others here and compare footage/cameras. I've only had my camera a week and only viewed it on the 2405 so I'm not certain yet if I think my camera is a good one or a bad one. But the noise and quality on the 2405 leaves much to be desired. We could even go down to Samys and see if they'll let us hook up to their monitors so we can compare on different screens. If you want to meet up with me in LA send me a PM.
 
Justyn said:
Would be the best thing in the world if it's just the Dell,
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Ya know what's weird though? I've plugged the Sony ZR1u into my Dell and it's CLEAN. Really clean... weird. The HD-100 shows noise, but my perception is it's not as much... or perhaps it's just different.

My 50" DLP shows the noise, but my friend's 50" Pioneer masks (imho) the noise. Or could it be just Pioneer's inputs or something else is that much better? I've seen quotes from people saying the 17" $3k Panny monitor shows the noise too.

The best stuff I've seen has been on that Pioneer Plasma. I noticed when Panasonic did their demo here in Phoenix that's what they were displaying on. My guess is that 17" Panasonic is pretty accurate.

You'd think pulling a frame into Photoshop, zooming in and using the pixel analyzer (or whatever they call it) might help determine what kind of pixel variation is actually in the frame.

@poiboy - 2 of the SAME monitors correctly calibrated is all you need because you can always swap the winning & losing cameras from one monitor to the other to verify the results. If monitor #1 looks noisier on both cameras then you know the monitor is out of whack and not the camera. I personally don't think there's much of a chance that would actually happen with 2 properly calibrated monitors. Easy to test nonetheless.
 
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