new shootout! HVX200 versus....hvx200! deathmatch!

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brianluce

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Similar to the jvc hd100’s split screen problem which some people have and some don’t, the hvx seems to present problems for some people with this noise blocking issue but others say it actually enhances the image or doesn’t exist at all. Just wondering if both cams, being newborns, suffer from quality control issues. That all hvx’s aren’t created equal. Maybe some of you guys SHOULD do some HVX versus HVX comparisons. Might be easier and more instructive than sending camera to panny, which can be like a black hole.
 
I ran into something tonight that has me almost CONVINCED that the "problem" has nothing to do with the HVX, but rather the Dell 2405 -- at least for those who are having a bad experience, and who happen to be viewing their footage on the 2405.

The Dell is a hideous monitor for video. Or, at least, it works hideously when combined with the HVX, that's for sure.

I brought in some HVX scene file pictures into the computer for the HVX Book, and changed their DPI in photoshop etc (so they're now in the computer domain, even though they're pixel-for-pixel identical to what the camera recorded). Looked pretty good. But I wanted to make sure that there wasn't some sort of gamma shift going on (as happens with NTSC and computer monitors and printouts, etc). So I set the Dell up in side-by-side picture-in-picture mode, brought up the Vegas timeline on the right, and the live component feed on the left.

The difference was stunning. The computer mode looked great, the live component feed looked absolutely hideous. Grainy and posterized and just plain terrible, by comparison.

Same monitor. Same footage. Difference was whether it was taking the input through the analog component inputs, or through the HDMI. The HDMI side looked great. The "video" side was awful.

So I thought "well, it must be the picture-in-picture mode that's doing it", so I set the component inputs back to full-screen mode. Nope, it was just as horrid.

My digital still camera broke, so I don't really have a way to show you guys the difference, but it would be enough for anyone to forever abandon the idea of using the 2405 as a video monitor (through its component inputs).

If anyone out there is upset about how their HVX footage looks, and they're viewing it on a Dell 2405, don't blame the camera, blame the monitor's video inputs. The Dell makes a great computer monitor, but a hideous video monitor.
 
It makes me wonder if other LCD companies are using similar signal processing on their analog side.

As I mentioned in a previous post, we compared the Dell 2405 to another monitor LCD monitor (cheap Costco, but capable of 1280x720 and component inputs).
The noise levels (using component inputs) appearded to be about the same as the 2405.
We verfied with the HVX200 and HD100.

Straight from my timeline out the computer to DVI, the 2405 still seems to be a bit grainy when viewing footage. PC graphics looks great though.

It does appear that the 2405 does seem to enhance noise levels (how?, i'm not sure).

I wish someone would chime in saying they've tried the high end LCDs such as the Panasonic. I'm would like to have a better understanding as to why these LCD monitors show more noise.
 
I think I may know what the issue is with that monitor, but since I don't know all the facts I may be wrong. The resolution of the monitor is different than the resolution of the camera's CV output. Therefore, you are using the monitor's internal scaler to convert the resolution to 1920x1200. Some monitors/TV's have great scalers and some have crappy scalers. If the picture from a computer looks fantastic then that may be because the monitor is receiving a signal with a resolution that is the same as the monitor's native resolution, so it wouldn't have to scale the image. The question is, what is the resolution of the HDMI signal? If it's a different resolution than 1920x1200 and there's black bars around the image, then the monitor isn't doing any scaling and it should look good. If it's 1920x1200 then that may be the reason it looks so good. If it's some other resolution then it could be the result of crappy D/A converters in the source (converting from digital to analog and sending over CV). Or it could be crappy A/D converters in the monitor to convert the signal coming over the CV back to digital. I deal with high definition TV's and I've seen this happen a lot. Just a thought....
 
Barry_Green said:
The Dell is a hideous monitor for video. Or, at least, it works hideously when combined with the HVX, that's for sure.
Click to expand...

I talked to someone at the bootcamp who said the Dell was the absolute worst thing to view HVX footage on, and I agree. I've seen my stuff on a 50-inch Pioneer Plasma HD monitor and it looked fantastic compared to the Dell.

Then again, I've had friends come over and look at stuff that I've shot (even the director of a movie I'll be DPing this summer) on the Dell, and they think it looks fantastic --- even when I've pointed out the noise!

Lessons? 1. Veiw your footage on anything but the Dell, unless you have no alternative. 2. Most people will never notice if you have to show your footage on the Dell. 3. If you can get your footage looking good on the Dell, it will be STUNNING elsewhere.
 
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flmmkr said:
The question is, what is the resolution of the HDMI signal? If it's a different resolution than 1920x1200 and there's black bars around the image
Click to expand...

I believe the Dell does show the black bars at the top and bottom, but I also believe it's 1920x1200. One of the cool things about the monitor is that you can view both 1080 and 720 images pixel for pixel on the monitor. Not sure if that helps.
 
Well, then if it shows bars with everything and varying sizes depending on the resolution of the image being sent to it, then it is most likely not scaling anything. That would mean the issue is with converting the image back to digital from analog.
 
Hey, Barry... in your comparison, did you have "video mode" switched on in the 2405's image settings menu? I think it affects only the analog video inputs, and it sure does some weird things with the picture... I find it's much better with video mode off.
 
I ran a spyder2pro color calibration device on my 2405 and it made a heck of a difference in the footage in PC monitor mode. The gamma on the Dell is way crazy. YOU MUST RUN A PROPER CALIBRATION!!! Night and day, heaven and hell difference :)
 
Barry_Green said:
I ran into something tonight that has me almost CONVINCED that the "problem" has nothing to do with the HVX, but rather the Dell 2405 -- at least for those who are having a bad experience, and who happen to be viewing their footage on the 2405.

The Dell is a hideous monitor for video. Or, at least, it works hideously when combined with the HVX, that's for sure.

I brought in some HVX scene file pictures into the computer for the HVX Book, and changed their DPI in photoshop etc (so they're now in the computer domain, even though they're pixel-for-pixel identical to what the camera recorded). Looked pretty good. But I wanted to make sure that there wasn't some sort of gamma shift going on (as happens with NTSC and computer monitors and printouts, etc). So I set the Dell up in side-by-side picture-in-picture mode, brought up the Vegas timeline on the right, and the live component feed on the left.

The difference was stunning. The computer mode looked great, the live component feed looked absolutely hideous. Grainy and posterized and just plain terrible, by comparison.

Same monitor. Same footage. Difference was whether it was taking the input through the analog component inputs, or through the HDMI. The HDMI side looked great. The "video" side was awful.

So I thought "well, it must be the picture-in-picture mode that's doing it", so I set the component inputs back to full-screen mode. Nope, it was just as horrid.

My digital still camera broke, so I don't really have a way to show you guys the difference, but it would be enough for anyone to forever abandon the idea of using the 2405 as a video monitor (through its component inputs).

If anyone out there is upset about how their HVX footage looks, and they're viewing it on a Dell 2405, don't blame the camera, blame the monitor's video inputs. The Dell makes a great computer monitor, but a hideous video monitor.
Click to expand...
Saaaaaaay.... what's with you still working on that book?!? I will not stand for this anymore! Stop screwing around on these boards and WRAP IT UP! :laugh:
 
soarprod said:
I ran a spyder2pro color calibration device on my 2405 and it made a heck of a difference in the footage in PC monitor mode. The gamma on the Dell is way crazy. YOU MUST RUN A PROPER CALIBRATION!!! Night and day, heaven and hell difference :)
Click to expand...

soarprod,
Please explain how this calibration works. I've heard of it, but never tried it.

The Dell does not allow much image setup when using the analog inputs.
There appears to be no way to adjust the luminance level when using the analog inputs.

I'm assuming the "video" mode is for adding setup (7.5 IRE) for NTSC input.
 
ullanta said:
did you have "video mode" switched on in the 2405's image settings menu? I think it affects only the analog video inputs, and it sure does some weird things with the picture... I find it's much better with video mode off.
Click to expand...

Oh, that's absolutely true. It's definitely better with video mode OFF.

With video mode off, the Dell makes your footage look like you dragged your footage through a sewer pipe.

With video mode ON, it's like you rubbed glass shards in your eyes before looking at the footage that's been dragged through a sewer pipe.

In all cases the video input from the Dell is showing darker brightness, redder colors with way starker contrast (less latitude) and a preposterous increase in the amount of noise.
 
JesterJJZ said:
Wow...glad I never actually bought one...
Click to expand...

Again, the Dell is a fantastic computer monitor. Very, very happy with it for that purpose.

But it is a repugnant video monitor. If you want to buy a monitor for your computer, I give it hearty recommendations. If you want to buy a field monitor for your HVX, it's hard to imagine doing much worse...
 
Hey Barry, is there anything that you can recommend? I'm thinking about the Panasonic 17", but I'd like to find something less expensive but as good of a picture if possible.
 
Might I recommend the HP L2335. I LOVE this monitor, and highly recommend it to anybody who is in the market for a new screen. Amazing size and quality for the low price.
 
Evinsky, sorry but I have that SONY and to me the picture through component looks very noisy. Maybe I need to set it up a little better.hmmm.
 
Besides the viewing issue:

I'd like to see a HVX-NTSC vs. HVX-PAL comparision!

The german magazine "videoaktiv digital" measured 110 TV-lines more resolution* horizontally and 100 TV-lines more resolution vertically for PAL-preproduction model vs. a NTSC-preproduction model.... In the magazine they talk in the very same moment about 1080i vs. 720p and preproduction vs. definite and PAL vs. NTSC... so I won't trust that much the figures and the magazine itself used the 3 pages just for publicity, as they announce that the "full test" with (also an actual PAL-version) will appear in the coming issue so this was just an appetizer...

Would be interesting to see now, whether

a) the PAL model has really a higher TV-line resolution in the actual version

b) what modes were compared

and for me even more interesting:

c) whether there are generally differences for the HVX image (color etc.) between NTSC and PAL version and WHAT the differences look l ike.

So THIS would be some kind of HVX vs. HVX test.... I won't mention problems like measuring with NTSC-screen vs. PAL-screen or NTSC-calibrated monitor vs. PAL-calibrated monitor... ;)

I am aware that the HVX either in NTSC-version (with 60p!!) or in PAL-version is worth 100 times its price and I won't give too much value to the results - it's just a question of interest and comparision not a competition.

* the measuring laboratory and methods of "videoaktiv digital" can be seen at http://www.videoaktivdigital.de/ then click on "Hintergrundinfo", then on "Messlabor" and you'll see the laboratory and get buttons for measuring resolution, noise, color, artefacts, iris, calibrating etc.
 
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