Sick of missing lines

ScoobySounds

ScoobySounds

Well-known member
I was just reading the 'one mic to rule them all' thread.. was gonna post there, but thought i'd raise an issue i've been debating with myself?

I've only been a recordist full time for a year, so everything i know, i've had to learn on my own in the field, so I'm well pleased i've found a forum like this! :)

I've got two MKH416's in my kit, but am sick of having to remember scripts and missing lines all over the place. I'm just looking into getting myself a MKH40.


I think maybe a cardioid would be better for so many situations. There are obvious advantages in a good quiet environment, with less need to reject sound off-axis. But even if, say, there is an unwanted noise source nearby, if I rotate the boom the noise changes between lines with the 416. I find having to keep the noise continuously off-axis quite difficult when moving between two actors. With a cardioid, the noise would be there, but it would be much easier to catch those inpromptu lines that the director loved so much, so in situations where the noise source is established (like traffic on a road) the cardioid would be a better choice.

Am I missing tricks here, or am i just missing a cardioid mic in my kit?
 
There are times when a cardioid is good like this... a hyper will also get the job done in the same way most of the time. If you must boom multiple people with one mic then the normal technique is to have the mic split the distance between those people... and have it pointing STRAIGHT DOWN as if it were a flashlight and you're trying to keep both actors under the light. Obviously the actors need to be fairly close together or else one mic won't cut it.

As long as your offending sound isn't coming from above... the hyper will work better then the cardioid because of it's narrower pattern. I go for a cardioid when I know that the situation will allow me to have the offending sound directly to the rear of the mic while keeping my actors in a reasonably tight group in front of the mic.

The hyper has really been my goto mic though. The 416 is exceptionally narrow... I don't think you need to go all the way to a 40 to get a more forgiving performance. Don't get me wrong... that's a great mic... and it will solve the 416 pattern issues... but I think a decent hyper would probably also solve those issues while still giving you some of the control that makes the 416 great.

I'm getting some new hypers next week... just to see what's in the middle ground between the Oktava and Schoeps. Currently I have an AKG ULS system with all the caps but omni... and the hyper cap (the ck63) has proven to be surprisingly good. I don't remember exactly, but I think that makes it about a $600 mic... and since the middle ground of hypers hasn't really been tested and discussed on these boards I'm going to put my hyper into a shootout with a T.H.E. hyper and even a new Rode NT6 hyper version. I'll put these in the same recording situation with the Oktava hyper and possibly (Joe?) the Schoeps MK41... this would give us the two extremes of price and 3 "middle ground" hypers for comparison.

Sorry for the long answer... the gist is that yes, an Mkh40 would kick ass, but I think the wider cardioid pattern may be helpful only about half the time... whereas a good hyper will kick ass 90% of the time.
 
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As usual, a great post Matt. Now you have me checking out those T.H.E. mics. While I have moved from the AKG Blueline to the Oktava and never looked back, that T.H.E. mic has peaked my curiousity, especially if it has the potential to eliminate the need to rent the Schoeps.

Your hyper shootout sounds like a great experiment, but what is confusing me is this Rode NT6 that you referenced. Maybe there is something that I'm not understanding, but after checking out the mic I just don't see this being, well, I'm not sure. I guess after looking at it, maybe it's just too funky for me.

407117.jpg


The shootout sounds great, but what about even a simple A/B between your ULS & the Oktava to show what $500 difference in hyper cardiod can provide?

-Jeremy
 
I'll knock that out for you later Jeremy... I think the cost difference is actually justified... but both mics will always have a place in my gear bag. That NT6 is weird isn't it? Actually it normally comes as a cardioid... but I'm supposedly getting a hyper... we'll see next week.

Well the T.H.E. mic came today and I'm pretty excited about it... my initial impression by just LOOKING at it was that they spent a lot of money trying to make it look cool and I was worried that some of the budget may have gone there instead of to the internal circuitry and diaphragm assembly... after a few preliminary tests I'm confident that they didn't spare any expense on this thing... it is blowing my mind so far. It'll take a few days to be sure this isn't infatuation but it's already exceeding my expectations.

Back on topic! Hey Scooby... I didn't want to hijack your thread... but if you're dead-set on sticking with Sennheiser then you should probably get the 50 instead of the 40. That would be more versatile in the long run.
 
Hey Matt,

Do you have a link for the T.H.E. mics? When I plug that into Google it converts the T.H.E. to "the". Thanks!

Phil
 
Matt, great advice! .. i'm not hell-bent on the 40 or anything, I read earlier on today what you said about the hyper and have been thinking about it. I'm only going with sennheiser just because I don't know enough about the other mics, definately happy to hear about comparisons!

the whole point is just to be able to have a more forgiving mic for wider spread action.

hey could you post here next week after you've drawn some conclusions? i'd definately like to hear about some other good alternatives.
 
ptalsky said:
Hey Matt,

Do you have a link for the T.H.E. mics? When I plug that into Google it converts the T.H.E. to "the". Thanks!

Phil
Click to expand...


Phil... I first saw the T.H.E. mics at... wouldn't you have guessed? THE SOUND ROOM! They are on this page HERE

The one I'm checking out is the KA-04 body with the KR-3H Hyper cardioid capsule. I'm afraid to comment on this mic too early... because it's a common thing to be "wowed" by a new mic... but I will tell you that initially I gave this mic a hill to climb in my mind... it's nearly the same proportions to an Oktava and it was designed by Taylor Johnson... who worked closely with Oktava in getting the MK012 up to par. So upon seeing this mic in it's size and proportions... I expected it to be like an improved Oktava or some derivitive of the Oktava... considering the price of this mic and it's intended market... that didn't give me a good feeling. Don't get me wrong... this thing is beautiful, but it's SIZE and PROPORTION is similar to the Oktava!

The good news is that it sounds NOTHING like the Oktava... that's not to say the Oktava isn't a great mic at the price... but I put this new T.H.E. mic up against my 480b/ck63... which is a hyper in the $600-700 range... and I was really surprised at how much I like the sound of this mic! Like I said I'm afraid to pre-maturely idolize the thing... but initial impressions are very very good. It honestly does remind me a LOT of the Schoeps MK41.

After the NT6 arrives I will do an organized "yankee-style" thread on the hypers that I've got... and hopefully one or two of Joe's hypers as well... he's the local guy I know that's got an MK41.
 
ScoobySounds said:
but am sick of having to remember scripts and missing lines all over the place.
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At the risk of sounding like a dick....

If you don't want to have to know the script, then don't be booming. It's the boom ops' job to know the script better than the actors, know the camera lenses, know the lighting, and most importantly of all, know how to deal with people. If that's too much for you, then get out now while you still can.

To address your question:

You should definitely have a cardioid in your kit, but not to make up for poor booming.

-Dave
 
Not wanting to jump on this bandwagon (although the company is good) but what they said.^^

In my booming days I tended to just memorize the last 3 words of the dialogue. If I am working with pro actors who get their lines right and consistent, this works great. You can also monitor the actor who is not speaking, they usually have a "tell" for when they are getting ready to speak.

As for dealing with people...there is an art to it. I had a boom guy (very tall, so Oleg would like him :) ) who I stopped using because he would get too friendly with the actors and often distract them as they needed to be getting ready for a scene. I spoke with him several times but he was just too damn "friendly" and if standing next to someone he had to engage them. Boom guys can't be the life of the party or at least learn when to turn it off.

Cheers
 
Dave_Fisk said:
If that's too much for you, then get out now while you still can.

To address your question:

You should definitely have a cardioid in your kit, but not to make up for poor booming.

-Dave
Click to expand...

Na its not too much for me, I don't like booming, its no secret, but i absolutely prefer booming my own stuff, cos then I can't blame anyone else but myself when the lines aren't there..

the point of me posting this thread isn't to assure myself to continue being a sound recordist or not, its to bring up the point that i've been in too many missed line ad lib situations where the director goes, 'right, thats a take, move on', and i want to cut down the amount of time where i ahve to say, 'no, sorry, we have to do that again'. I am a young recordist and am here for mic advice, so please don't shoot me down.

wabbit - I think my dealing with people is fine, seem to get the work only through word of mouth, but obviously i'm learning all the time,. I think I can be proffessional to the last, as I suppose does everyone.
 
Yes, being a boom op is challenging to say the least. On a feature I mixed last November, I was just about at the point of telling the director that either the boom op had to go or I was gone (he hired the boom op). Not only was the boom op hard of hearing (not a great trait for anyone in the sound department to have) but he also was completely inappropriate on the set. He would disappear and hold up takes, he would yell during MOS takes (and once on a take where everything was wireless lavs because the shot was too wide to get a mic in). And once, we were recording a concert, with the boom up on a c-stand, and he kept coming over to talk to me during takes (of course his voice was picked up by the boom). This particular director was a bit wimpy and way too nice, so he didn't want to confront him (he knew there were problems). But, this one actually solved itself...the boom op in question actually called cut during a take. Bye bye boom op.

Phil
 
TheYankee said:
Maybe there is something that I'm not understanding, but after checking out the mic I just don't see this being, well, I'm not sure. I guess after looking at it, maybe it's just too funky for me.

407117.jpg


The shootout sounds great, but what about even a simple A/B between your ULS & the Oktava to show what $500 difference in hyper cardiod can provide?

-Jeremy
Click to expand...


We use a pair of Neuman's that are like the NT6 for FX recording. THe big plus is small size and light weight (in the Rycote anyway). The Neuman uses the same capsules as the more "normal" looking mic and the sound is the same but the size is much easier to get into tight places and less attention getting.

SK
 
working exelent for plant mics on the table and behind whatever :-)
also one time in year on the boom for extra low cellings

but my are schoepse so it about 400$ per cable - very expencive solution .
the neuman is not much cheaper
 
My only complaint to AKG about the ULS line is that they offer the active cable on the BLUE but not the ULS! I bought the a61 swivel for the feature of booming low ceilings... and I've FINALLY grown to like that swivel... initially I was frustrated that it wouldn't control the ck69 cap (the shotgun) because it didn't have the locking strength to hold an angle... unless it's just a 90. But I've been in a couple booming situations where you want to get the mic in a tight area and it's really convenient for it to parrallel the pole while the head points where you want it to. If AKG sold an active cable for the ULS I'd certainly buy one... Sure this Rode is ugly as mics go... but I love the idea of being able to get a mic into the absolute best spot every time. That's the reason I'm eager to check it out.

As George said... the freakin' Schoeps active cable alone costs more then the entire NT6! I think it would be a handy tool to have around.

I'll let you know what I think of it this week.

The T.H.E. mic is definitely doing it for me... I can't wait to do a T.H.E. and Schoeps comparison. At this point I think we all know what the spread of good shotgun choices are... but hypers have been somewhat mysterious... there's the Oktava at the low end and the Schoeps at the high end... it will be cool to get a handle on what's in the middle.
 
actually akg did active cables for 460 but it was involved whith different capsules ( different lock system)
they stopped it few years ago ,
the mbho have quit agood range of preamps , the 603 a could be working with cable , the standard length is 3 meters but you can pick up any length up 20 meters, the system is almost the same as the rode . so the capsule sits about inch above the mic if you work without
the capsule range is also very good and include figure of 8
dont know how much it in states but in europe is about 425 euro for a preamp whith detachable cable and 220 for the hyper cardioid ,190 for the cardioid
the regullar 603 is 290 euro and the new 604( improved and shorter version of 603) is about 360
the swivel for these 2 is about 150 euro
dont know how much is the new version of the 604 with swivel as one peas - i guess around 400
so for 650 euro ( 850 $) you have excellent microphone which can work this way .in my opinion the 603 with the hyper cardioid sounds better then 185 neuman , its sounds much closer to schoeps then akg
the 603 doesnt have lo cut filter
mbho also have the cheapest version of the preamp 648 with lo cut but its much lower output and more noisier , so mainly good for close micking .
 
the rode is cardioid pattern so i dont know how good it for regullar booming situation , but they probably would come with few other heads as well .
usially their mics are better then good whith small exception of the ntg **** ( both models)
 
i likes the looks of that there rode! like you say matt, that could be a really handy tool to have around... im thinking especially along the lines of plant mic use... did a short the other day, all interior, all statics. and because we were shooting kinda for fun, i experimented with using plants. lots of plants. its a flippin awesome way to cover parts of a frame, and it was also some nice practice at actually mixing a shoot, instead of just riding levels.

buts thats all off topic... PLEASE let me know what you think of the T.H.E. mic, Im keen to pick one up if it is truly a comparable mic to schoeps 41. i have my doubts, but it would rock if its a favourable comparison!

Tim
 
I understand everyone's comments about the use of that NT6, how it can be beneficial, but that is the ugliest looking thing I've ever seen. I don't doubt that I could find a use for it (like as the killer in the next science fiction film I do), but it could be the second coming and I won't buy it. I just don't like it.

Like Tim, I'm excited to check out this T.H.E. mic. It's a pain to type, but from what Matt is saying it seems to be the Oktava on Barry Bond's type drugs. I'm excited about checking it out.

-Jeremy
 
As everybody can tell from my thoughts on the me66... gain is not everything to me... just because a mic is hot doesn't mean it's good... but at the same time I do think gain is to some degree one of a few signs of quality engineering. The 4073a is actually HOTTER then the me66 and yet it sounds much better and is more controllable in use... why? I don't know. It seems that if the me66 wants to blow the levels then the 4073a would be even worse... but it's not... it's much better sounding and easier to control. So in the case of the 4073a I like that it's so sensitive.

The first thing that jumped out at me with this T.H.E. mic is how much more sensitive it is then the Oktava... I'm reluctant to even mention the Oktava in the same sentence, because the T.H.E. comes in the same cedar box as the Oktava and it's of similar size... but then again the Schoeps is about the same size as the Oktava too. Maybe it's just that the T.H.E. came from sound-room that I don't want it to look anything like the Oktava. Anyway... it doesn't matter because it sounds nothing like either of the Oktavas that I own. I had to turn my mixer way down from the settings that I had for the Oktava... the T.H.E. mic is pretty close to the sensitivity of my AKG ck69 on the normal setting. This should be a fun hyper to boom. Also I'm finding the sound to be very neutral and defined... one of the things that I really like about the Schoeps. The Schoeps has a pleasantly "raw" sound that doesn't seem to enhance any part of the dialog... with the possible exception of upper mids to lower treble... there's an immediacy in that range that I've never been able to decide on... I don't know if I like it or dislike it... but it helps dialog to cut through. The T.H.E. has the same timbral neutrality... it seems like it doesn't favor any range... even more so then the Schoeps... because even that upper mid definition is neutral... and yet it still has the pleasingly "raw" sound to it.

"Raw" is a generally negative term... but it's all I can think of beyond "real"... I think most mics sound more or less "real". The character of a Schoeps is something that you won't really appreciate until you're standing there with the headphones on and listening in realtime to an event... and you just appreciate the nuances of the moment... not in the way a shotgun let's you select the details... but rather in a heightened sense of reality. The T.H.E. mic does that same thing for me... and just like the Schoeps, the pattern falls off like turning a volume knob... no timbral changes. Tomorrow it will get some professional use... should be interesting.

Regarding the NT6... I was given the impression that I'm actually getting a hyper-cardioid... or perhaps that will come in a couple days after the regular NT6 gets here. Either way that mic WILL be available as a hyper very soon. Jeremy and I have been joking back and forth about the appearance of the NT6... and honestly I think it's more a matter of opinion then outright ugliness... but if she cooks a great meal, cleans the house, and she's great in bed then I sure 'aint kicking her out just 'cause she's no Pam Anderson. I'm eager to see what that thing can do.
 
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