PAL HVX200. How do we edit in FCP?

Ok guys, *picks up banners* off to the local mac shop.

Lets see, got my microsoft t-shirt, plaqe reading *Be a PAL apple, Give us 25p*
A soiled babies nappy to burn in a symbolistic ritual representing DIRTY JOBS.

cya later
 
Hi guys,

I understand your impatience of the 720p NLE issue. Speaking as a representative of Panasonic in Europe, we are very well aware of these issues, and we are pushing from our side.

We, Panasonic, can not speak on behalf of either Apple or Avid or any other manufacturer of NLE products. Please be aware of that, it is their products, and we are not in the position to say nearly anything about other manufacturers.

As for the time being HVX200E - when it comes to editing - it is a 1080/576 25p/50i product . Let us hope (!) that the leading NLE suppliers will provide us 720p support in all three modes, 50p, 25p and 25pN, at NAB. (Panasonic Europe is actually one of the loudest part screaming to our friends in the NLE business.)

And we in Europe are not as bad as you might think... we actually keep fighting for you guys... although we might not always be replying to posts in this forum.

But for now, consider HVX200E as an HD 1080 25p/50i camera and a 576 25p/50i for the time being if you need to edit within a short horizon. This should work with FCP and Avid.
For any 720p frame rates, please wait. I feel confident there will be some solutions within a relatively short time frame, and I hope we will see some of it during NAB.

Hope this helps.

Best,

Vidar
 
Thanks for the post Vidar. I think many of us HVX200 PAL owners just find it abit frustrating that we cannot shoot the camera the way we want to, which of course is the 720P.

Just keep shouting nice and loud for us please. It will obviously affect sales of the camera if would be purchasers get wind that they can't edit their footage in their favourite NLE.
 
Phew got back from the MAC store. Was supposed to be a protest, ended up walking out with a new ipod, Macbook pro. Powerbook *incase the macbook breaks*, 4 34 inch displays and a t- shirt that reads *apple to the core*

oh no *bashes head* il take it back. they got me guys.

Vidar Engen, keep up the good work.
 
Vidar Engen said:
Hi guys,

I understand your impatience of the 720p NLE issue. Speaking as a representative of Panasonic in Europe, we are very well aware of these issues, and we are pushing from our side.

We, Panasonic, can not speak on behalf of either Apple or Avid or any other manufacturer of NLE products. Please be aware of that, it is their products, and we are not in the position to say nearly anything about other manufacturers.

As for the time being HVX200E - when it comes to editing - it is a 1080/576 25p/50i product . Let us hope (!) that the leading NLE suppliers will provide us 720p support in all three modes, 50p, 25p and 25pN, at NAB. (Panasonic Europe is actually one of the loudest part screaming to our friends in the NLE business.)

And we in Europe are not as bad as you might think... we actually keep fighting for you guys... although we might not always be replying to posts in this forum.

But for now, consider HVX200E as an HD 1080 25p/50i camera and a 576 25p/50i for the time being if you need to edit within a short horizon. This should work with FCP and Avid.
For any 720p frame rates, please wait. I feel confident there will be some solutions within a relatively short time frame, and I hope we will see some of it during NAB.

Hope this helps.

Best,

Vidar
Click to expand...

Vidar, thanks for the post. its good to see you guys are listening to the costumer base. However, there are things that need to be said. It is, frankly, unbeliavable that a company with such respectable market share and international knowhow wouldn't supply the codec specifications and even talk about integration with its NLE partners.

" View the HVX as a 1080i 50 and 1080 25p camera." Are you kidding?? The variable frame rates are the main advantage of the camera! It is one of the ONLY things (and 4:2:2) that's heads above the competition. This is really very hard to understand.

You say you are pushing for us, yet, the camera was released and you didn't even had an update on your site! It is ridiculous seing AG-hvx200e specifications as "preliminary" when the camera is already in the market. I heard about your update on April's Fools, but this, sincerely, is NOT good marketing and costumer service.

It seems that a multi billion dollar company like Panasonic can't convince or even talk to its NLE partners to support what seems to be its most profitable product in the professional line, and its up to the PAL end user, again, to struggle and do the " fighting" and the work you are supposed to do. Please explain the phrase " And we hope!... " You HOPE? We are paying big money for this thing, and it should very well work like advertised! You are talking, in your brochures, about full integration in major NLE. Well if that's full, it, certainly isn't of " integration" ...

To anyone who hasn't seen, there's a thread about a PETITION TO APPLE for full FCP support. the link is:

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=51312

or if you don't want to read it just send your feedback to:

http://www.apple.com/feedback/finalcutpro.html

Seeing the " hope" statement, I believe it is up to us PAL users to push and pressure Apple for full integration of the codec. One more question to you, Vidar: Have you at least sent codec specifications to Apple, or do they have to guess it themselves (like we have to do?)




Since I'm not on Avid or Premiere user, I would suggest fellow Pal users in the PC realm to start Petitions to send to these NLE companies. I really hope I'm not making a mistake going for the HVX200e ( I was planning to edit mainly in 720p). This is a very good example that an excelent product can be completely crippled by insufficient support. But There's still time ! We have to fight! Keep the feedback to Apple coming! (And Avid and Premiere!)
 
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I have no intention of seeing this forum degenerate into a bunch of people piling on complaints.

Put things in perspective: it was TWO YEARS before JVC early adopters had support in FCP or in Avid. TWO YEARS.

JVC's HD100 was announced over a year ago, and started delivering in Europe in June, and America in August. It's now March of the next year, and FCP still doesn't have 24p support, and neither does Avid.

The Canon's been on the market for five months, and no FCP or Avid or Premiere support yet.

The HVX has been on the market in Europe for ONE WEEK and already you have 1080 and 480 support, and most likely (MOST LIKELY) 720 support coming in the next release.

Vidar is saying that you have 1080 and 480 support today. Presumably 720 support is coming. They cannot dictate to Apple what Apple does. Nor can they dictate to Avid or Vegas or Premiere. They can ask, and they can cooperate, but they cannot dictate.

Asking Apple is the right thing to do. Panasonic doesn't control what Apple does. Apple controls what Apple does.

Vidar comes on here and tells you what Panasonic UK is doing, and that they're lobbying, and your response is to yell at him and denigrate his company's efforts? No wonder we don't see more rep support.

I'm not saying I don't see your frustration, I do -- Over in the US we can't edit 1080/24p on FCP. But come on -- direct your frustration to where it can do some good, and don't go ragging on Vidar. Panasonic has done such a superior job of getting support as compared to any other manufacturer -- would you rather be in the HD100 boat, waiting 9 months so far, for support that may never come? Or Canon, waiting five months and counting? Or Sony, which took over seven months for HDV support to arrive?

It's been ONE WEEK. Keep it in perspective, please.

Direct your requests to those who can actually help you. That's Apple, and Avid, and Adobe.
 
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Well, there certainly are things to put in perspective here also, Barry.

You have excelent costumer support in the US, by the excelent Product Manager that is Jan. Panasonic Broadcast USA is always up to date with information. In Panasonic Europe, you don't have a single, unified information of what's going on- 29th December was EUA's launch date. This was stated and presented. In Europe, just a silent launch with some underground buzz stating 17th March. No confirmation of system's atribbutes, with the Official site still stating preliminary specs (which are the same as the released model, if I'm not mistaken). The brochure clearly states full integration with NLE systems like Apple and Avid, which is not true in the actual state of form. This in my book is not good communication and just helps to confuse the ones that are going to make or brake the deal, and that's the overall consumer.

We are not talking about a consumer handicam here. We are talking about a purchase that is worth at least 6000 Euros to record HD with freedom. This is a lot of money, and it is an investment more than a toy to the target market of the machine. The integration with NLE should have been done and ready by the time of release, or on the next update. This is what I'm hoping to see, and sincerely need in order to take full advantage of the camera I've decided to purchase.

It is the best 1/3 ccd camera on the market, no doubt. But we need the solutions to take advantage of it, or else its just a crippled machine.

The fact of Vidar coming into the forum in the name of Panasonic Broadcast Europe is a good sign of things changing. This didn't happen before, and it shows a change of mind on the European structure of the company. However, they should also know that costumer satisfaction has to come with costumer care. And this implies comunication with the client. There's certainly lots of climbing up to do for the European structure to come close to the American side in therms of communication and support. Lets hope this post from Vidar is the sign of the beginning of a new era for Panasonic Europe. This, for us, would mean a better overal product- because a product is not just the product in itself, but the support and everything it needs to interact in order to fulfill its full potential.

EDIT- VIdar, this is nothing personal. I think it is great to have someone like you to come the extra mile and tell members of a www. forum about the current situation. I'm very keen to your Panasonic Products. I'm a proud owner of an Ag-dvx100a, owned an AG-DVX100, purchased the LC-1 photo camera, and own a Panasonic CRT HDTV. I really like your products, specially the way you interpret color- it seems to me that you always go for a more film like color in all your products range, compared to the competition. However, you need to keep the service up to par to your excelent product range.
 
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Hmmm, Do you think because of sony vegas's support for the DVX series they may come out and again be the first to support the panasonic. Or do you think that sony's investment in the HDV technology will cause them to abandon DVCPRO codecs.

Personaly i would like Vegas to see an update. I find it more enjoyable to work on than most of the NLE's out there.
 
SPZ, I don't disagree with anything you wrote in that last post. If we keep it at that level, that's fine. I just don't want to see any sort of "chumming for sharks" or "blood in the water" frenzy going on. Vidar came here specifically TO GIVE information. That's a good thing. He should be commended for that, and then given feedback on what more we/you want and expect.

But you catch a lot more flies with honey than vinegar.

Although, why anyone wants to attract flies, I haven't ever yet figured out.

Except frogs, of course. That part makes perfect sense.
 
Digital Angel said:
Hmmm, Do you think because of sony vegas's support for the DVX series they may come out and again be the first to support the panasonic. Or do you think that sony's investment in the HDV technology will cause them to abandon DVCPRO codecs.
Click to expand...
I expect no support from Vegas. I'm very, very, very disappointed by that, but it looks like they're relying on RayLight to be their answer. Whether that's due to internal politics or what, I don't really know, nor is it all that relevant; what matters is whether they'll support the product fully and properly, with proper MXF integration. And right now I doubt it. I'd LOVE to be proven wrong, but in the absence of any confirmation from them whatsoever that they're going to support it, I've moved on to FCP and Edius.

If they change that stance and announce full support, I'll sell the Mac and gladly, gladly return to Vegas. But I see no reason for optimism.
 
Agreed 110%. Like I said, the comment wasn't directed at Vidar, but at Panasonic Europe. We are probably spoiled here by the excelent costumer communication that Jan does (or did, since I don't see her around here that much anymore-maybe it was the flies? :) ).

I'm buying the HVX200e, no doubt about it. Just look at the stills from the latest chroma key grabs in the pictures and video section. However, I would really want to be able to express my creativity with the full potential of the camera at my disposal...

A technical question that might ease the minds of some Pal users, if confirmed: We can still work with Variable frame rates, if we downcovert the 720P footage in camera to DV, right? In other words, I can still use the Variable frame rates, but only in DV resolution, right?
 
Re comment about Vegas, Vegas already supports DVCPROHD including the dreaded 720-25P format with Raylight 1.05. So does Premiere Pro.

When I tested Raylight with some 720-25P files that a customer in Spain had sent me, I noticed that it was a strange combination of the 1080i50 and 720P60 formats. The frame data lives in blocks that are exactly 1/2 the size of the 1080i50 format, yet the macroblock shuffling and ordering are the same as the 720p60 format. I can see why the editing software in FCP, Avid and the rest would have trouble. It's not SMPTE standard at least not 370M.
 
mvb said:
Re comment about Vegas, Vegas already supports DVCPROHD including the dreaded 720-25P format with Raylight 1.05. So does Premiere Pro.

When I tested Raylight with some 720-25P files that a customer in Spain had sent me, I noticed that it was a strange combination of the 1080i50 and 720P60 formats. The frame data lives in blocks that are exactly 1/2 the size of the 1080i50 format, yet the macroblock shuffling and ordering are the same as the 720p60 format. I can see why the editing software in FCP, Avid and the rest would have trouble. It's not SMPTE standard at least not 370M.
Click to expand...

But railight is already supporting it, and it didn't take that long- just 1 week since the camera release? It shouldn't be a problem for Apple or Avid, if they want it, IMO...
 
Raylight does indeed allow Vegas to work with the files. What I meant by "support" was proper MXF integration and a capture utility; I really don't expect Vegas to add that anytime soon, although I very much hope they do.

Very interesting to see that you already have 720/25P support enabled! And 1.05... I just installed 1.04 yesterday! You're moving fast!
 
SPZ said:
But railight is already supporting it, and it didn't take that long- just 1 week since the camera release? It shouldn't be a problem for Apple or Avid, if they want it, IMO...
Click to expand...
EXACTLY. Which is why you have to nag Apple and Avid. They are the ones who can make it happen, and only they can make it happen.
 
Barry, concerning the variable frame rates downconvert to dv? Can you clarify? This can be done on the NTSC camera, right? So you could do a Draft in dv with the Variable frame rates effect, than keep the HD master for the near future... So PAL users can theoretically still do their productions in 720P, present their Drafts to investors or clients in DV, and than Master in HD when the support is there... (right?)
 
I agree on SPZ's point that it is plain wrong to display FCP and AVID integration on the HVX200E brochure and in the end, not having it at release time. I don't think anyone rational, would take a hit at Panasonic if the brochure said that full integration is (i.e Q1 or Q2 '06) imminent. I don't believe that any intentions on Panasonic's part were wrong, what I do believe however is that they need to get things shaken up a little bit there and work on their marketing and communication dept's. You simply cannot launch a product secretly just because the FS-100, P2 Cards, NLE integration or whatever other reason you can't control is not there, we live in an imperfect world and delays do happen, I know that from my work, as long as you speak and explain everything always works out for everyone.

I think it is literally a huge step on Pana Europe's side to come here and talk about things, I believe it is the first time I felt equal with all the guys in the US, a big thumbs up to Vidar Edgen and his effort to make things right for Pana Europe and lets hope for the best!
 
Panasonic can bring out the P2 viewer for Apple, maybe that stimulates Apple to bring FCP updates out to help Panasonic. I am almost sure that Apple is going to support PAL 720/50P, most likely during NAB.

Speaking about sour and sweet , I don't know if this stimulates Apple:
Barry_Green said:
If they (VEGAS) change that stance and announce full support, I'll sell the Mac and gladly, gladly return to Vegas. But I see no reason for optimism.
Click to expand...



Hey this is cool...someone (who has the privilege to be a moderator) changed my
sig! Look at the funny misspelling thing. Childish I think.
 
mvb said:
Re comment about Vegas, Vegas already supports DVCPROHD including the dreaded 720-25P format with Raylight 1.05. So does Premiere Pro.

When I tested Raylight with some 720-25P files that a customer in Spain had sent me, I noticed that it was a strange combination of the 1080i50 and 720P60 formats. The frame data lives in blocks that are exactly 1/2 the size of the 1080i50 format, yet the macroblock shuffling and ordering are the same as the 720p60 format. I can see why the editing software in FCP, Avid and the rest would have trouble. It's not SMPTE standard at least not 370M.
Click to expand...

Mvb, can you tell us the native resolution of the Pal codec? 960v720 or 1280v720?
 
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