Video shot by my stablizer

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Leigh Wanstead said:
I am trying to tell you that try yourself as Mikko suggested too.
Click to expand...

You know, it didn't sould like that 2 posts ago. It sounded more like you where pimping (your [commercial] I presume?) BM over all others beacuse it was obviously the best without need to try anything else.


- Mikko ... "I'm just sayin'..."
 
Hi Mikko,

You see that we are different. You are trying to compare apple to orange. Your setup is 18kg and my setup 26kg. There is 8kg difference.

Even from Tiffen, the price difference of the steadicam mainly based on how much the weight the stabilizer can support.

The price for low end flyer is US$6,000, for add some extra weight the rig can support the price will sky rocket jump to US$20,000 plus. You know that, right?

Our 8kg weight difference is huge, right?:)

I would like to direct anyone interested to know the difference of back mount and front mount vest to this thread which Mikko participated too.

http://www.steadicamforum.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=41

If you wish to discuss in detail with experienced operator, you can simply register in that forum and post a reply to that thread.

Regards
Leigh

mikkowilson said:
The fully loaded the Flyer weighs in just short of 18kg [~40lb]. I shoot and practice like that on occasion too. For example that music video I did "Antihero" was 2 full days fo shooting, with about half the days shooting Steadicam. We did multiple takes thoguh the song back to back, including slow speed playback. So probabaly around 10 mintues between docks, without *any* discomfort.

When practicing I somtimes spend up to an hour in the rig non-stop with various loads. Never with any pain or discomfort. The only bit to tire is the legs with a big kit after a long time, but that's the same with any rig.


EDIT: Leigh posted while I was typing, so I'll add a little more regarding back strain in general...


The body is designed with a supportive system of bones (our skeleton) that then uses a system of tendons and finally muscles to carry any weight. Using these muscles and tendons is the body's prefered way to carry any weight.

When using a Steadicam our center of gravity moves forward, to just in front of us. There is a natrual situation in which a person deals with this: during pregnancy, and the body is fully deveoped to deal with this. There is a set of muscles (known by Steadicam Ops as "That muscle") in the lower back that is there exclusivly to support that forward CG during pregnancy. Normally we never use these muscles, so the first time we use a Steadicam they get sore quickly. (Like Neo's eyes in 'The Matrix') But after a bit of use, like any muscle, they develop very quickly and become very good and holding that aditional weight and distributing it to our skeleton and the ground, especially when standing properly.

A 'Frount Mount' vest uses the body's own system to comfterbly distribute the wieght of the system to your skeleton and to the ground. If you stand wrong, you can of course feel discomfort, like when wearing a large backpack. But properly adjusted, a good FM vest won't hurt at all.

A 'Back Mount' vest doesn't use your body's natural system, but rather the vest to transfer theweight more directly to the spine. It bypasses those muscles we have that are designed to carry that forward CG. For *some* people, a BM vest will feel more comfterble for their operating style. But I belive that this is beacsue it also alows you to stand with bad posture, which is bad for your back. - You can of course use it correctly too, but your body won't tell you if you sre standing wrong untill it's too late.

Sorry to use you as an example Leigh, but you do provide one prety easily. Look at this picture:
normal_www.smootharm.com.2006_3_21_1.jpg


See how your back is arching back? The rig is pulling you in and forward without you noticing becuase of the way the vest works. That's compressing the vertabrae of your spine which creates preasure instead of allowing the weight to flow down properly.


In short: A FM vest uses the body's support system of muscles which will hurt if you are doiong something wrong with pain. You do it right and there won't be any pain.
A BM vest bypasses this support and feedback system, putting the operator at great risk of improper operating that can lead to injury.



- Mikko
Click to expand...
 
Hi Mikko,

May I ask a list of your 18kg setup if not too much trouble for you? i.e. arm weight, vest weight ect?

It might help flyer buyers to get an idea too.:)

Regards
Leigh

mikkowilson said:
The fully loaded the Flyer weighs in just short of 18kg [~40lb].

- Mikko
Click to expand...
 
Leigh,
The SteadicamForum.com is a fantastic resource where pros discuss various issues. I recomend anyone to head over for a read. However, the forum isn't really very open to non-profesional oprators and singing up to chatter there is higly discouraged and normally non-pros are given the boot pretty quick. It's a pro's forum where "noobs" arn't really that welcome. Sorry.


Leigh Wanstead said:
Hi Mikko,

May I ask a list of your 18kg setup if not too much trouble for you? i.e. arm weight, vest weight ect?

It might help flyer buyers to get an idea too.:)
Click to expand...

You can always ask...

Hmm...
Flyer vest is 2,2Kg [ 4.3LB ]
The Flyer arm is 3,7Kg [ 8.4LB ]
The Flyer sled is 2.2Kg [ 4.3LB ]
There is NO (useless) "Dead weight" on the Steadicam Flyer.
Total bare Flyer system wieght is 8.1Kg [17.9LB]

I added on a Hitachi 2/3" DVCAM (Broadcast) camera package and batteries to match that wieghed 9.9Kg [ 21.8LB] to the 18Kg [ 40LB ] total max I mentioned earlier.


Since you asked, lets do a little comparison shopping shall we?
Note to all: This is the first time I'm doing a system break down comparison betweent the Flyer and SmoothArm, so let's see how this goes...

Your specks:
Leigh Wanstead said:
my jvc gy-dv5000 camera which weighs around 13.78 pounds(6.25kg). The whole package weighs around 48.50pounds(22kg)
[...]
my whole package 57.32 pounds(26kg) which includes my jvc gy-dv5000 without viewfinder 11.02pounds(5kg), dead weight 17.64pounds(8kg) [...]
[...]
Without camera 5kg and dead weight 8kg, the whole package weighs 13kg.

Here is my package weighs in detail.

Back mount vest weighs 4.02kg
Arm weighs 2kg
Sled weighs 6.28kg
Dead weight 8kg
jvc made sony standard camera mount plate 700g
Camera weight 5kg
Click to expand...

SA (SmoothArm) vest is heavier, as to be expected with a BM vest, nothing special there.

SA arm wieghs less, but that's due to it's extremly simplistic design. The Flyer arm weighs more, but it's performance stands unmatched (and the SA can't come close), so no supprize there.


The bare SA sled weighs, gawd, 6.3Kg??!! That's more than your Camera!! :shocked:
In fact, the Steadicam Ultra Sled, which: telescopes from 28" to 6.5feet, includes an 8" HD monitor, electronic frameline and 'bubble' (artificial horizon) generators, a full 12 and 24v power and video distribution systems, and a remote controlled motorized stage that also tilts, only wieghs about 6.8Kg! Where did you put all that mass?


PLUS you use an aditional 8Kg of "dead" wieghts, I presume as the counter weights on the sled. - That puts you up to 14Kg sled weight alone without the camera. And that edad wieght appears to have no secondary function (like a monitor and batteries do)

Wait, quick question about your balancing - what is the drop time on your system? 8Kg with the mechanical advantage over the camera, you drop time must be very short.


What is the maximum camera that the SA can support? From your specks, it appears that you can carry about 5Kg [ 11 LB ] worth of camera. So basically most things DV but no Broadcast or Film gear. Enough for many users here though.



Basically it looks like the SA weighs so much that it notably restricts the camera capcity. It has an 5:21 (.24) camera to system ratio. It will only carry a camera one Quater it's own weight.

In comparison the Flyer has the weight ratio reversed and can carry much more. It has an 10:8 (1.25) camera to system ratio. That means it will carry a camera that weighs 1.25 times the weight of the system!

However, if one wanted to, it apears the that light weight Flyer could be nicly carried by the SA at it's maxium capacity! :grin:

I think you said it best Leigh:
Leigh Wanstead said:
Our 8kg weight difference is huge, right?
Click to expand...


Interesting stuff. This of course has no bearing on the performance of the system (except when the operator's legs go), but in the weight contest, The SA looses pretty badly to the Flyer at least.

- Mikko
 
Last edited:
Hello everyone,

I have uploaded some high resolution photo on my website www.smootharm.com under the following two links
Photo
High resolution photo

Please feel free to tell me if you have any questions.

Regards
Leigh
 
Hi Mikko,

I disagree what you said.

Regards
Leigh

mikkowilson said:
Leigh,
The SteadicamForum.com is a fantastic resource where pros discuss various issues. I recomend anyone to head over for a read. However, the forum isn't really very open to non-profesional oprators and singing up to chatter there is higly discouraged and normally non-pros are given the boot pretty quick. It's a pro's forum where "noobs" arn't really that welcome. Sorry.




You can always ask...

Hmm...
Flyer vest is 2,2Kg [ 4.3LB ]
The Flyer arm is 3,7Kg [ 8.4LB ]
The Flyer sled is 2.2Kg [ 4.3LB ]
There is NO (useless) "Dead weight" on the Steadicam Flyer.
Total bare Flyer system wieght is 8.1Kg [17.9LB]

I added on a Hitachi 2/3" DVCAM (Broadcast) camera package and batteries to match that wieghed 9.9Kg [ 21.8LB] to the 18Kg [ 40LB ] total max I mentioned earlier.


Since you asked, lets do a little comparison shopping shall we?
Note to all: This is the first time I'm doing a system break down comparison betweent the Flyer and SmoothArm, so let's see how this goes...

Your specks:


SA (SmoothArm) vest is heavier, as to be expected with a BM vest, nothing special there.

SA arm wieghs less, but that's due to it's extremly simplistic design. The Flyer arm weighs more, but it's performance stands unmatched (and the SA can't come close), so no supprize there.


The bare SA sled weighs, gawd, 6.3Kg??!! That's more than your Camera!! :shocked:
In fact, the Steadicam Ultra Sled, which: telescopes from 28" to 6.5feet, includes an 8" HD monitor, electronic frameline and 'bubble' (artificial horizon) generators, a full 12 and 24v power and video distribution systems, and a remote controlled motorized stage that also tilts, only wieghs about 6.8Kg! Where did you put all that mass?


PLUS you use an aditional 8Kg of "dead" wieghts, I presume as the counter weights on the sled. - That puts you up to 14Kg sled weight alone without the camera. And that edad wieght appears to have no secondary function (like a monitor and batteries do)

Wait, quick question about your balancing - what is the drop time on your system? 8Kg with the mechanical advantage over the camera, you drop time must be very short.


What is the maximum camera that the SA can support? From your specks, it appears that you can carry about 5Kg [ 11 LB ] worth of camera. So basically most things DV but no Broadcast or Film gear. Enough for many users here though.



Basically it looks like the SA weighs so much that it notably restricts the camera capcity. It has an 5:21 (.24) camera to system ratio. It will only carry a camera one Quater it's own weight.

In comparison the Flyer has the weight ratio reversed and can carry much more. It has an 10:8 (1.25) camera to system ratio. That means it will carry a camera that weighs 1.25 times the weight of the system!

However, if one wanted to, it apears the that light weight Flyer could be nicly carried by the SA at it's maxium capacity! :grin:

I think you said it best Leigh:



Interesting stuff. This of course has no bearing on the performance of the system (except when the operator's legs go), but in the weight contest, The SA looses pretty badly to the Flyer at least.

- Mikko
Click to expand...
 
Leigh Wanstead said:
Hi Mikko,

I disagree what you said.

Regards
Leigh
Click to expand...

Disgree with what? I was stating facts, based on my own meansurements with the Flyer and what you have told us about your rig.



You fast walking looks ok - all over the place - but not that shakey or bouncy. Would be interesting to see a full out run if possible to do it safly. Can you remove any weight from your rig to allow you to go faster?


- Mikko
 
Hi Mikko,

You can say whatever you wish. I just simply disagree with what you said as you put bad word on my product.

I don't have the energy and time to argue with you. Sorry about that. I will not reply to any future post by you regarding to your view of SmoothArm. That is it. Period. You are not my customer anyway.

Regarding to move faster issue, simply I won't try it now. There is no such requirement to move faster in my view. If you really want fast moving shot, as I said on my page, get some car! That is what pros do. That is cheap and safe and relax too.

Regards
Leigh

mikkowilson said:
Disgree with what? I was stating facts, based on my own meansurements with the Flyer and what you have told us about your rig.



You fast walking looks ok - all over the place - but not that shakey or bouncy. Would be interesting to see a full out run if possible to do it safly. Can you remove any weight from your rig to allow you to go faster?


- Mikko
Click to expand...
 
Two practise videos were shot yesterday.

There is no software stabilizer effect applied to the video. No wheelchair/stegway assistant whatever.
Just simply low mode two separate single shot.

The camera is jvc gy-dv5000u camera.

Windows media format screen size 320x240
1 http://www.SmoothArm.com/clip/2006_8_16/www.smootharm.com.2006_8_16_1_320_240.wmv
fize size around 5mb
2 http://www.SmoothArm.com/clip/2006_8_16/www.smootharm.com.2006_8_16_2_320_240.wmv
fize size around 5mb

Windows media format screen size 720x480
1 http://www.SmoothArm.com/clip/2006_8_16/www.smootharm.com.2006_8_16_1_720_480.wmv
fize size around 22mb

2 http://www.SmoothArm.com/clip/2006_8_16/www.smootharm.com.2006_8_16_2_720_480.wmv
fize size around 23mb


DVD format just unzip to your local drive and play by software dvd player
1 http://www.SmoothArm.com/clip/2006_8_16/www.smootharm.com.2006_8_16_1.zip
fize size around 119mb

2 http://www.SmoothArm.com/clip/2006_8_16/www.smootharm.com.2006_8_16_2.zip
fize size around 123mb

Regards
Leigh
 
It is a little smoother than your previous stuff Leigh.

I'd still be interested in seeing something more exciting. It seems like you can set up your rig for a variety of shots, but I'm not sure if it can do more complicated stuff. Would be interesting to see somethien faster and more complicated, closer to the feedom of handheld (as is the idea of a stabilizer). I think that's about the fastest we've seen you go.

Also on a side note (pun intended); your horizon is horribly off throughout both of those shots.

- Mikko
 
Hi Mikko,

Maybe you are not aware of that slow moving stabilizer shot is harder than fast moving shot. There is restriction of moving the camera speed in film shooting. And do you know about KISS? :)

Regards
Leigh

mikkowilson said:
It is a little smoother than your previous stuff Leigh.

I'd still be interested in seeing something more exciting. It seems like you can set up your rig for a variety of shots, but I'm not sure if it can do more complicated stuff. Would be interesting to see somethien faster and more complicated, closer to the feedom of handheld (as is the idea of a stabilizer). I think that's about the fastest we've seen you go.

Also on a side note (pun intended); your horizon is horribly off throughout both of those shots.

- Mikko
Click to expand...
 
Leigh Wanstead said:
Hi Mikko,

Maybe you are not aware of that slow moving stabilizer shot is harder than fast moving shot. There is restriction of moving the camera speed in film shooting. And do you know about KISS? :)

Regards
Leigh
Click to expand...

Yea Mikko.....geeze.....quit using that LEGO thing and get a real Steadicam damnit (wink wink nudge nudge say no more) :love4:
 
>your horizon is horribly off throughout both of those shots.

I saw that too, but it looks like the house is built on a hill side and the house is level, but he ground slopes off to the left. (benefit of the doubt)

BTW, let's see some running shots, how about a german sheppard chasing the camera instead of the micro-dog!
 
j said:
>your horizon is horribly off throughout both of those shots.

I saw that too, but it looks like the house is built on a hill side and the house is level, but he ground slopes off to the left.
Click to expand...

You are clever. :dankk2: Yes, the house is built on a hill side.

Regards
Leigh
 
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