16mm X HVX FOOOOOTAGE!!

xray said:
Huh? We were talking tape versus P2 here. :nads:
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Tape vs. P2? Isn't the name of this thread 16mm....

Tape is necessary still for long shoots, but tape sucks, IMO. Tape is going the way of the vinal record, 8-Track, cassette, brontosaurus, pteradactyl.... :)

Once P2 cards get bigger, tape will fade away fast.
 
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R Gale said:
Tape vs. P2? Isn't the name of this thread 16mm....

Tape is necessary still for long shoots, but tape sucks, IMO. Tape is going the way of the vinal record, 8-Track, cassette, brontosaurus, pteradactyl.... :)

Once P2 cards get bigger, tape will fade away fast.
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Im with you that tapeless is the future, I am not so sure that a one company solution -like it is with P2 now- is the answer, the problem now is that if Pana is not giving you the Thing, you cant do anything except waiting for another company to step forwards with a solution. Like a HDsystem or anything else. We have no available 8 or 16 Gig P2 here now, if it is, and afordable, and ´open´ like DV was. I prefer that.

But tape for camcording is going the DoDo way, sure. I give Pana credits for braking the way with P2, but don´t forget to see others. I think Ikegami did the first thing 8 years ago?

We have tapeless studio broadcastsytems here, we have D10 as a standard.
 
Ikegami was certainly paving the way with the EditCam. And every major manufacturer is offering their variant of tapeless now; JVC with their OEM'd FireStore and their built-in hard disk on the GY-HD7000, Canon with their OEM'd FireStore, Sony with XDCAM, Thomson/Grass Valley with their REV PRO and compactflash Infinity and Viper Flashpak systems, RED with their REDFlash recording system, and Panasonic with their P2 and OEM'd FireStore. Even in consumer cams we're seeing DVD camcorders, JVC's Everio hard-disk cameras, and Sanyo's and panasonic's SD-based camcorder systems.
 
Spartacus said:
Why are the moderators so picky when someone here doesnt´t join the "we-love-the-hvx" chant?

I really like this forum, but this "pana-police" attitude is beginning to scare me out...
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My thoughts exactly....

But did you expect anything else from a website which bases its name on a companies camera model?...
 
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I actually think Hard Drive recording will be the way of the future. Everyone I know whose every captured directly to a fire story (friends with a JVC HD100 for instance), always swear to never use tape again. I think that once the cineporter comes out, no one will bother with P2 cards again.
 
DavidBeier said:
I actually think Hard Drive recording will be the way of the future. Everyone I know whose every captured directly to a fire story (friends with a JVC HD100 for instance), always swear to never use tape again. I think that once the cineporter comes out, no one will bother with P2 cards again.
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Check out Marc Singer's current documentary with a marine corp force.

Hvx and P2 went through harzardous conditions (explosions!) and kept on acquiring.

I think a hard drive based system like the Cineporter would go toes up at the first hard bump (I've killed a few dirves... a bad sector or two usually will make a drive useless for video).

I'm not knocking the Cineporter.... I'm probably gonna get one... but my documentaries will be with ladies at tea parties.
 
Optimal would be a combination with one P2 and a cineporter.

Hey this is cool...someone (who has the privilege to be a moderator) changed my Sig! Look at the funny misspeling thing. Childish I think.
 
Shame the cineporter is some way off being release. Would love to have had that as an option but I've got things to shoot over the next few months so I need something to at least record DVCPro50 to for these SD jobs.
 
test 1/3" camera´s for drama

test 1/3" camera´s for drama

"Of the 30 to 40 pilots being prepped for shooting at this moment, and of those considered by the networks to have the most potential, all are being shot on film."

Rodney Charters andTaylor Wigton both DP, did a test to see if 1/3in chip HD cameras are good enough for high-end TV drama. Good reading stuff.:)

http://www.hdforindies.com/2006/03/showreel-article-hdv-on-set-of-24-pt1

Hey this is cool...someone (who has the privilege to be a moderator) changed my sig! Look at the funny misspelling thing. Childish I think.
 
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stabwound said:
Check out Marc Singer's current documentary with a marine corp force.

Hvx and P2 went through harzardous conditions (explosions!) and kept on acquiring.

I think a hard drive based system like the Cineporter would go toes up at the first hard bump (I've killed a few dirves... a bad sector or two usually will make a drive useless for video).

I'm not knocking the Cineporter.... I'm probably gonna get one... but my documentaries will be with ladies at tea parties.
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Lets be serious though. How often do you think people are going to be shooting in sub-zero temperatures or with explosions going off? Perhaps a few uber-dangerous documentaries will still use P2s but I don't see why anyone else would. For that matter, wouldn't documentaries generally prefer the cineporter since they can shoot footage for MUCH longer amounts of time without changing the cards?
 
I think its not what "will" happen, its what "could" happen. Sure you wouldnt light off a stack of plastique explosive next to the HVX, or put it in your freezer overnight to take it out the next day for immediate shooting. But whos to say a similar and equally demanding situation wouldnt arrise???

Why would you limit the usability of your setup? Why would you want something that has even the slightest possibility of breakdown. I know i sure wouldnt. Not on a shoot. Not anyday.

So the answer is no. Most people probably wont be shooting explosions or filming in the arctic, but for those that do there is a solution, and that solution is P2.

If you want to "chance" it with an HDD, go for it ( and i seriously mean chance. Hard Drives are fragile objects with spinning disks, prone to failure and data error on multiple levels) Otherwise you could completely trust the P2 technology and the "no moving parts" solution.
 
I heard similar arguments agains the DVX back in the day. "It's a toy." "I'm afraid I'm gonna break it." "It may look like film but how can you trust something so fragile?"

The camera still caught on. I repeat. Maybe in high risk shoots people will go with P2's but I'm guessing 99% will go with the far more convienent and FAR cheaper HDs.
 
I remember people saying 24p is a gimmick. Now that's funny.

xray said:
Huh? We were talking tape versus P2 here. :nads:
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No. You made a sarcastic comment to Justyn regarding offloading P2 cards while 'running' when he was simply illustrating the convenience and practicality of the system for his needs. The magazine comment was an example of how far we have come in effieciency and process in the field...


Im with you that tapeless is the future, I am not so sure that a one company solution -like it is with P2 now- is the answer, the problem now is that if Pana is not giving you the Thing, you cant do anything except waiting for another company to step forwards with a solution. Like a HDsystem or anything else. We have no available 8 or 16 Gig P2 here now, if it is, and afordable, and ´open´ like DV was. I prefer that.

But tape for camcording is going the DoDo way, sure. I give Pana credits for braking the way with P2, but don´t forget to see others. I think Ikegami did the first thing 8 years ago?

We have tapeless studio broadcastsytems here, we have D10 as a standard.
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You are not sure if it is the answer. It may or may not be. It may simply be the beginning of the answer. Who knows what it will mutate into.

You seem so hell bent on discounting Panasonic's offering then what pray tell is the solution ? Where do you want to see it go ? What does or does not work for you ?

I see people adopting this technology now and applying it today while others complain about it without using it.

-

We can agree:

Tapeless is indeed the future and the future is now. (Like digital, it is happening as we speak.)

-

Why are the moderators so picky when someone here doesnt´t join the "we-love-the-hvx" chant?

I really like this forum, but this "pana-police" attitude is beginning to scare me out...
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I missed this one. It's the context and delivery guys. Keep that in mind please. Don't be so paranoid.
 
This is a very different argument. You really didnt have a choice with the DVX. As far as i kno, owning 2 of them, they were very well built.

We are talking about the reliability of a technology with HDD vs. P2 and thier price for performance.

The things that will probably keep me with P2 are, well, its reliability. The fact that i know i can rely on it when the going gets tough; it will be their by my side, never dropping a frame or skipping a beat. Native frame rate support is also essential to me. Shooting 24PN is a god send. I couldnt imagine ever using pulldowns again in FCP.

I know the cineporter will have native support. But im just not crazy about a cable hanging out of my P2 slot, exposing the slots to unnecessary dust and debree.

Firestore- no native support. Ive already lost interest.

Again, all personal perspectives.
 
Ok, i have something more to say...

The only thing holding back people from P2 is what? its price? Flash ram has been following a steady decline in price ever since its birth. Soon when 16GB cards become affordable (say 2007), whats going to be the competition? HDD? By then Hard drive capacities will be pushing their limits, with holographic and optical storrage on the horrizon, fragile HDD's will be uneconomical. With its robust and concrete reliability, P2 will establish itself as the professional format of "reliability".


Its important to look at where this P2 technology is going, its potential and your investment in that potential. Dont be short sighted on current card capacities, look at the system, the workflow, and the reliability. Judge it by those and then determine if it will be right for you.

Buy the idea, not the little 4" card...


- Rhydon
 
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I used P2's for the first timethis past weekend covering an Arm Wrestling Championship. we were shooting 8gig carsds, in DVCpro50. ( we were going to shoot 720Pn, butwe had trouble synching the cameras) This gave us 16 minutes per card, 32min Total.(720pn would have given us i think 9min per card) it took about 5-6 minutes to offload the contents of the cards to a Harddisk through a laptop. We had a crew of about 8 guys and one awesom gal.

three shooters,
three p2 jcokeys,(off loaders)
1 producer
1 guy who filled in for whomever.

The set up was smooth and very efficinet.

HOWEVER!

if you were a lone shooter, ican se how it would be increadibly difficult to do live event cverage. Infact it would be borderline impossible, unless you had at least 15 8gig cards. (because we offloaded full cards and passes the empty cards back to the shooters.) IT was GREAT the footage was awesome. But HDV would have been FAr more cnvenient if you were a lone shooter. However, thats why P2 is said to be a "professional" format. you kinda need a crew to use it. unless what youre covering, is completely under your controll.

( think covering a live event with film cameras.... you need a guy constantly feeding you fresh film)

Now at the event there was a Pro crew there, from Fox news. shooting Panasonic shoulder mount ENG cameras (SDX900????? i dunno...)
But the machine had a bank of about 15 cards in it. That sounds more feasible cause teh guy was alone.

But in the end of the day, the footage shot by the HVX with DVCpro50 will look better than any SD Stuff out there. Sans the Pro News Crew.
 
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Its important to look at where this P2 technology is going, its potential and your investment in that potential. Dont be short sighted on current card capacities, look at the system, the workflow, and the reliability. Judge it by those and then determine if it will be right for you.
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Well put.

-

And if it is not the right choice for you; then by all means move on.
 
Smart Alac said:
My thoughts exactly....

But did you expect anything else from a website which bases its name on a companies camera model?...
Click to expand...


Exactly what I got.. wanted.. and really appreciate. Helpful and constructive info on the camera that I picked out.. the one that has the skillset and features that I need and prefer. I'm a canon guy.. or I was, and this is my first panasonic camera.

There's not a police state going on.. but maybe a movement or paticular niche.. The same as there is on the canon watchdog site and the JVC pro HD sites.

If ya on the fence about a camera.. then it's up to you to decide and get the best info from those sources you recommend... and everyone is going to have a preference.. Expecting something other than that is to expect people to be robots...

I've really gained so much from my participation here.. just like I did on my days on the canon sites. I wasn't there to rustle up the feathers and cause a stink.. like I'm not now...

I'm the outsider here... didn't get to use the DVX a lot.. Don't have the comfort here.. and Barry, Jared, John.. and others have helped my transformation... It's one that also doesn't slam others for choices, but defends it's own stance. I like that... and i've gone to Panny and will be a vehament advocate as I've seeing breathtaking footage everytime I go on out..
 
TimurCivan said:
I used P2's for the first timethis past weekend covering an Arm Wrestling Championship. we were shooting 8gig carsds, in DVCpro50. ( we were going to shoot 720Pn, butwe had trouble synching the cameras) This gave us 16 minutes per card, 32min Total.(720pn would have given us i think 9min per card) it took about 5-6 minutes to offload the contents of the cards to a Harddisk through a laptop. We had a crew of about 8 guys and one awesom gal.

three shooters,
three p2 jcokeys,(off loaders)
1 producer
1 guy who filled in for whomever.

The set up was smooth and very efficinet.

HOWEVER!

if you were a lone shooter, ican se how it would be increadibly difficult to do live event cverage. Infact it would be borderline impossible, unless you had at least 15 8gig cards. (because we offloaded full cards and passes the empty cards back to the shooters.) IT was GREAT the footage was awesome. But HDV would have been FAr more cnvenient if you were a lone shooter. However, thats why P2 is said to be a "professional" format. you kinda need a crew to use it. unless what youre covering, is completely under your controll.

( think covering a live event with film cameras.... you need a guy constantly feeding you fresh film)

Now at the event there was a Pro crew there, from Fox news. shooting Panasonic shoulder mount ENG cameras (SDX900????? i dunno...)
But the machine had a bank of about 15 cards in it. That sounds more feasible cause teh guy was alone.

But in the end of the day, the footage shot by the HVX with DVCpro50 will look better than any SD Stuff out there. Sans the Pro News Crew.
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I've done a few one man band shoots here and it's not imposible.. it just requires a p2store and atleast 2 cards. 3 is ideal.. but 2 works and works quite efficiently. Sure, if I were running all over shooting nonestop then a 2nd assistant with the P2store would be called for... but tripod style shooting isn't that big of a deal at all...
 
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