HD100 vs. HVX on the Las Vegas Strip

[Gordon JL]

What I think - An unbiased (nearly) POV

What I think - An unbiased (nearly) POV

Based soley on the first 4 pictures Barry has provided (the thread was so long, I didn't have time to see the other screens -- I will add more of my thoughts later), and assuming that everything was shot in a fair manner (why was HVX downrezzed from 1080?), I feel that perhaps the HVX does have more "color resolution"; but in terms of overall resolution, I'm really not sure. The JVC actually seems slightly sharper; but it looks more like edge enhancement, and could just be cheating my eyes. The JVC, although ever so slightly sharper looking, looks more video-ish, because the HVX is more soft in it's edges; things seem more film like. And no doubt, the HVX seemed to produce the most realistic true visuals of the two (again, so far, I have studied only the first 4 pics posted). A lot of weird crap from the JVC, and artifacting, etc.

Personally, for me, when it comes to these high-definition camera, which camera has more resolution doesn't really matter anymore -- the difference is just insignificant. HD is HD. If I had to choose based on these 4 visuals, obiously, I would go with the HVX.

Of course, I also find that the motion is the most important part; because I feel that it is in the motion where you can truly detect the difference between film and video -- so I need to see video comparisons between the two. Although they're both 24p, there can be differences in the motion still; maybe one produces a more motion-blurred image.

 

[Barry_Green]

question: have you found the shortcoming of the hdv codec less pronounced in the jvc flavor? with it's shorter gop?

If you read the initial posts I made, I commented on that -- I thought the JVC codec held up resoundingly better than the Sony one. The shorter GOP definitely makes it more resilient to macroblocking or lego-blocking. While this torture test still pushed it over the edge, I thought it did much better than the longer-gop Sony version handled the same thing. Part of it is due to the shorter GOP, I'm sure, but part is also due to there being so many more bits per pixel allocated to JVC's HDV compression, especially in 24P: JVC is trying to compress 22 million pixels into 19 megabits, vs. Sony's compressing 46 million pixels into 25 megabits. I think JVC's implementation is a lot more robust than Sony's.

To be fair, Sony's also provides twice the temporal resolution of JVC's, so it's not apples-to-apples. Sony's trying to encode over twice as many pixels at twice the perceived refresh rate.

It will be most interesting to see how the Canon performs, as it's sort of hybrid there -- it has the lesser compression demands of having to do only 24 frames (rather than 60 fields like the Sony does), but it has the longer GOP structure like the Sony does instead of the shorter GOP of the JVC.

 

[Barry_Green]

I believe that each of the "flavours" of HDV don't talk to each other ie: sony won't play Canon, won't play JVC, vica versa etc. Anyone know about this?

JVC won't play Sony or Canon footage
Canon won't play JVC footage
Sony won't play Canon 24F or 30F footage

Canon will play Sony footage

Sony will play Canon 60i footage

Sony will display, but will not transport via firewire, JVC's 30P footage
Sony won't display nor transport JVC's 24P footage

 

[berni]

Looks like a possible cottage industry in converting footage eh?

 

[berni]

Question about the Canon... if Sony doesn't play canons' 30F, does this mean that there is more to 30F than just line doubling and outputting to 60i?

 

[brianluce]

I believe that each of the "flavours" of HDV don't talk to each other ie: sony won't play Canon, won't play JVC, vica versa etc. Anyone know about this?

that's my understanding and it's one of the gripes about canon solution.

 

[Stevet]

I've used an HVX and an HD100, Barry has used both. I would say that that gives us both a great insight to their abilities. Please do your own testing and see what you like, don't just have blind faith in brand XYZ.

Well put.

 

[Gordon JL]

Off topic sidenote: What's with my rubber eyepiece!?? It's always covered in dust no matter how often I clean it...

The dust is hard to clean off I know. Just use some tape man.

 

[stephenlnoe]

@Barry, Are the raw files buried somewhere in the responses?? Did you get a chance to use SalaTar's offer? I'd like to take a gander at the raw stuff when you get a chance to get it uploaded.

 

[stabwound]

The dust is hard to clean off I know. Just use some tape man.

That's how I clean it.

There's a roll of tape for that purpose in my bag.

This isn't just the HVX... the FX1 Sony eyepiece was a dust magnet too.

Someone should market the rubber as air cleaning devices.... they'd "clean up".

I'm so paranoid about dust that I keep the HVX in a plastic bag until I do a shot. When I had the Canon 10D Dslr (interchangeable lens) dust would get on the sensor.... I clean the sensor with low tack tape! Imagine doing that to a 1/3 video camera sensor... the fixed lens HVX is an advantage in this regard. I've never handled a interchangeable lens video camera.... wonder if they have this problem.

OFftopic Sidenote:

Since I had no P2 card yet, I decided to do testing with a regular DV tape shoot.

Not too much to say except, now that I've seen HVX HD (feed into monitor) there's no way I'll ever shoot regular DV again. Well, maybe for my buddy's kid's birthday party.

 

[berni]

Hey Barry...

You were involved with that 4 camera shootout weren't you?

I downloaded the "720 cams" and the "1080 cams" q'times. In those slightly moving res-chart shots, the pana seems only to show 550 h-lines res, yet it's still your favourite.

I'm just wondering... is it just the camera looks better than that particular test suggests?

I liked the "scenic" stills produced by the HVX as there was no CA on the edges of the black/white box on the chart to the left of the girl (I was surprised to see it on the canon)... but the picture seems a tad softer than the other cams. Is that a fair comment for that particular test or are those pictures misleading?

 

[Barry_Green]

@Barry, Are the raw files buried somewhere in the responses?? Did you get a chance to use SalaTar's offer? I'd like to take a gander at the raw stuff when you get a chance to get it uploaded.

Raw JVC stuff is now online. I decided to recapture just the salient points as referenced by the stills, which cut the 600mb down to around 80mb or so.

I've posted the files on my backup site. I haven't been able to post them on my main site because it's been under a denial-of-service attack since Sunday, which is why they haven't been accessible. Looks like it's finally back up though.

http://www.icexpo.com/HD100/HD100-Strip-1.m2tx
http://www.icexpo.com/HD100/Hd100-Strip-2.m2tx
http://www.icexpo.com/HD100/HD100-Explosions.m2tx

 

[Barry_Green]

In those slightly moving res-chart shots, the pana seems only to show 550 h-lines res, yet it's still your favourite.

My favorite, and the favorite of basically everyone else there too. Six of the eight of us there bought the HVX.

I'm just wondering... is it just the camera looks better than that particular test suggests?

It absolutely does. It looks like what these stills show. And what all the other footage shows. And like the wolves and Cassidy Bisher's "snow day" shows, and Steev Dinkins' and Neil Rowe's and Evin Grant's footage shows.

From what I experienced a wobbling black-and-white res chart doesn't do anything like justice to what the camera produces. If what you want to shoot is res charts, you should probably buy the Canon -- it was without equal on the res chart. But if you want shots that look like this:

... well, if you want a shot that looks like that, the HVX does a mighty fine job of it.

 

[Barry_Green]

Question about the Canon... if Sony doesn't play canons' 30F, does this mean that there is more to 30F than just line doubling and outputting to 60i?

It's because Canon doesn't embed the 30F within a 60i data stream. They instead employ actual progressive encoding. Should provide more efficient encoding and make for more robust artifact-resilient footage, but it also makes it incompatible with Sony's 60i recording.

 

[proximity]

My golden words:

-Shooting 24/25 progressive is good because it's a better format to manipulate in post (shake, photoshop etc)

-Shooting HD is good since it helps to the detal in the "film look"

-Using a DVCPRO codec which has good colorspace gives me more latitude in post when doing color correcting etc,

-Variable framrates; slowmotion is a powerfull effect when it can be delivered in a true progressive 24/25p package

These are my reasons to buy the HVX. - I'm not rich at the time beeing, since I'm a student. - But when I have my complete package of HVX, M2 with 3 lenses and the stuff I allready have, I have faith that my package is suitable to create broadcast quality images which average joe thinks of has "Hollywood filmed"

Please don't kill my dream

- Proximity

 

[Elton]

Two reasons. One, because the HVX is higher def in 1080. In 720 the HVX records 960x720, in 1080 it records 1280x1080. 1280x1080 downrezzes to 1280x720 very nicely. Makes for ultimate 720p. And if I'm going to go comparing resolution, I'm not going to tie one hand behind the HVX's back, I'm gonna let it do what it does best. And 1080 is what it does best. I would only use 720 if I needed maximum recording time on the cards; otherwise it's 1080 all the way, all the time. It's what the camera does best.

Second reason: people have been saying there's "overexposure artifacts" in 1080 mode. I knew those explosions would push it into overexposure, so I wanted to see if I could find what they were talking about. I detect no artifacts whatsoever, so that's Myth #2 busted.

Hey Barry,

How 'bout an NAB challenge at the Sirens T.I. show? I propose this:

An explosions recording with, (at the very least) the HVX and the XL-H1. JVC is of course, invited too. But here's the wrinkle: The Xl-H1 also records at 1080 and downrezzes nicely to 720p. How about seeing how the H1 renders HDV and live SDI tap to DVCproHD of the same scene, comparing how the HVX renders 4.2.2 and also how the H1 does HDV 4.2.0 and DVCproHD 1080 and 720 4.2.2.?

I'd be happy to wheel my G5/Kona in the portable case I'm building down to the location and let 'er rip on this worst case scenario. I propose this because there are many who bought the H1 with the SDI in mind for future productions.

We all know that HDV can be stressed and broken in certain fairly uncommon situations. I'd be curious to see how the H1's long GOP holds up compared to Sony and JVC, but I also want to see how it renders DVCproHD of the same scene (as a camera head) compared to the HVX.

I consider not using SDI for this kind of scene like having one hand tied behind the H1's back.

We could also compare 1080 from both cameras just for ***** and giggles.

How 'bout it?

 

[SPZ]

Sounds interesting! A duel like in the Wild West Movies! Where's the Enio Morricone music?

The definitive showdown!

Don't forget, each one should have copies of each others footage in the end!

 

[Barry_Green]

Michael already talked about doing something similar. I'm interested to see how it would play out. So, sure, name the time & place and let's do it.

Keep in mind that this is a dodgy proposition when you start bringing additional gear though -- there are literally 1,000 people standing around, and pickpockets galore. That's why I take the two cams mounted on one bar or platform -- you can't take a tripod, you can't block foot traffic, you have to be (as best as possible) completely pedestrian. Set up a tripod or a computer and you'll have trouble, so I don't know quite how well that would work... unless maybe you can juice your way in with someone at the Treasure Island Hotel, at which point maybe we could get a primo vantage point instead of down with the crowd...

 

[SPZ]

Strengh and Honor, guys, strengh and honor ( I'll probably have my PAL HVX by then, but I won't miss this for the world!)

 

[Elton]

Is there a better time of the week when it's less crowded? I could meet Mike in Vegas and all I need is my box on wheels. It'll have a UPS so I don't have to plug in anywhere.

I can wheel in and wheel out...and if you could invite a few trustworthy friends to act as security detail...this could happen. Anyone from the boards want to help out?

I fully realize it might be a little dodgy but this would be a cool comparison test. We'll exchange all the footage and post the raw stuff. You can dial-in the HVX and I'll dial in the H1. We'll shoot just like you did with the JVC.

I'm game.