60P, 24P, 24PN and a whole bunch of others...

Chris Messineo

Chris Messineo

Veteran
I just got my HVX today and man do I feel dumb.

It seems like my camera is defaulted to 720P/60P.

I know what the 720 is, but I am confused about the 60P. Is that refering to the frames per second. Shouldn't it be set to 24 for a "film look" and if that is correct what is the difference between 24P and 24PN.

Did I mention I actually need to shoot an audition tomorrow with this beast. :(

Chris

p.s. I am trying to ingest the manual as fast as possible, but it is slow going.

p.p.s. Barry's book can't get here fast enough. :)
 
The difference between "720 over 60" mode (720p/60p, 720p/30p, and 720p/24p) and "720 Native" mode (720p/30pN or 720p/24pN) is that when you're in the 720p over 60 mode, you're always recording 60fps to the cards no matter what. Even if your framerate is set to 24fps in the scene file settings, the camera is going to pad those 24 frames with 36 other duplicate frames so that 60 frames are actually being recorded. The reason you'd want to use that mode is so that you can output the signal via firewire to send the footage to a deck or a computer in a "capture now" situation. Note that if you use this mode, you'll need to use the multiple framerate converter available for FCP (for free on the panasonic website) to get the cadence you're after in post. It is an extra step that will take both more time and hard drive space, as it creates duplicates of the original files without the extra padded frames.

24pN mode, on the other hand, is a new mode to the HVX which only records the active frames you are shooting. Therefore, if you have selected 24fps in your scene file while in this mode, you're only recording those 24 frames (as opposed to 60). This is great because it allows you longer recording times and faster time to post. The other great thing about this mode is that if you are shooting at a different framerate than your base of 24pN, say, 48fps, it's still going to play back in camera at 24fps. That means you can view the results of the overcranking or undercranking right in the camera. That's something you can't even do with Varicam. The downside of the "native" mode is that it can't be used to stream directly over firewire and it isn't capable with the DVCPROHD decks that expect 60fps at all times.

My suggestion to you is to put your camera in 720P/24pN mode and leave it there, unless you have a reason to shoot something else. Then all you have to worry about is selecting your framerate in your scene file and you'll always get the maximum recording time to your P2 cards.

It is a bit confusing, but hopefully that will help at least a little.
 
60p refers to 60 progressive frames per second, yes. It gives you the "video" look in high-def.

You'd want to go into menu 5 and change the REC FORMAT mode to 720/24pN. If you're shooting onto the cards, and editing on FCP 5.0.4 or Avid, just use 24pN mode.

If for some reason you need to stream your footage through the firewire port, that's when you'd want to use 720/24P mode (for example, capturing live through firewire on a computer).
 
That's great, Haakon. You know, I know I've read all this before, but it gets jumbled in the noggin' and I completly forget what any of it means. Seeing it put so clearly is helpful.

Barry, send out those books!! :laugh:
 
Haakon said:
The downside of the "native" mode is that it can't be used to stream directly over firewire and it isn't capable with the DVCPROHD decks that expect 60fps at all times.
Click to expand...
Haakon, are you saying that if I shoot at 720p24PN with the HVX200, then I CAN NEVER output that footage to DVCPRO HD via a deck like Panasonic's 1200A deck?

I'm concerned that we're running out of options for final output of edited HD material. Down-rezzing to SD DVDs, BetaCam, and DigiBeta just don't do the HVX200 footage justice. In a month we may have HD DVD players, but who knows what HD DVDs will actually look like on a standard TV.

Any further thoughts?
 
You couldn't output it via the camera through firewire to the deck, no.

You could import it to FCP, conform it to 60P and output it to the deck from there...
 
Thanks for the awesome help guys.

I just set the camera to 720p/24pn, recorded a take, and then imported it into FCP. My only question is, why does the clip require rendering inside FCP. Is there some setting I need to change in FCP so this will import and play without rendering?

Chris
 
Make sure that your SEQUENCE settings are set up for DVCPRO HD, that the size is 960x720, and that the framerate is 23.98. If you do that, you shouldn't have to render anything.
 
Andy O'Neil said:
Haakon, are you saying that if I shoot at 720p24PN with the HVX200, then I CAN NEVER output that footage to DVCPRO HD via a deck like Panasonic's 1200A deck?
Click to expand...
That's correct. But we'd be much worse off if the camera only offered the "over 60" mode. I think you'll find that you rarely, if ever, will have a use for that mode unless you frequently have to capture live into a computer.

Andy O'Neil said:
I'm concerned that we're running out of options for final output of edited HD material. Down-rezzing to SD DVDs, BetaCam, and DigiBeta just don't do the HVX200 footage justice. In a month we may have HD DVD players, but who knows what HD DVDs will actually look like on a standard TV.

Any further thoughts?
Click to expand...
I'm not quite sure what your concern is. You can still easily get the 24pN footage onto a computer, edit it, and store it in it's full resolution on whatever archive medium you choose. Put in on DVDs (DVD-DL is even better), back up to DLT, or just keep it on a hard drive. I think the best option will be Blu-Ray when that debuts in a few months. I don't think you're going to want to go back out to *video* tape (as opposed to data tape) as you would with the 1200A deck, because in order to get it back, you'd have to capture the whole thing all over again. In the data realm, there's no need to capture... just copy and move the files in the data format they're already in.
 
CMessineo said:
You guys rock!!!

How would I ever live without DVXUser. :)

Chris
Click to expand...
Believe me, I had the same hair-pulling frustrations when I first started using the camera - you're not alone! :) It's even more frustrating in 1080/24pA mode, because FCP has no support for that yet at all (a detail that hasn't been made more public, surprisingly). I went through a hundred different settings trying to get that mode to work before I read somewhere that they're "still working on a solution." Now that the CCD specs have been released and it's been clarified that everything's an upsample as it is, it's almost a moot point (I'd rather be recording in "N" mode anyway) but I agree, it's nice to have the help. I've learned so much from all of these websites... it sure is nice to live in an age where we can all pick each other's brains any time of day no matter where we are! :)
 
Haakon said:
Make sure that your SEQUENCE settings are set up for DVCPRO HD, that the size is 960x720, and that the framerate is 23.98. If you do that, you shouldn't have to render anything.
Click to expand...

This advice works and I don't see an option for 1280x720. However, when I use the QuickTime-wrapped footage in other places, it displays it in 16:9 (1280x720). What is up with the 960x720 in Final Cut? I'm confused.
 
Barry_Green said:
You couldn't output it via the camera through firewire to the deck, no.

You could import it to FCP, conform it to 60P and output it to the deck from there...
Click to expand...
This line of dialogue has been extremely helpful in understanding and getting a handle on the HVX workflow. My only questions in regards to what Barry said, how do you confrom it to 60p in FCP, would that be adding the 2:3 pulldown to the footage to make it 60p? If so, how do you add the pulldown to the footage in FCP?
 
I've found this thread to be very helpful too. As soon as I get up from the computer, I'm putting my HVX in 24pn mode, and leaving it there. Suddenly, my 8 gig P2 card can store more than 16 minutes of 720 footage. And now the P2 Store isn't looking quite so anemic, either. Instead of an hour of footage, it can hold more than 2.
 
DP StrangeLove said:
My only questions in regards to what Barry said, how do you confrom it to 60p in FCP, would that be adding the 2:3 pulldown to the footage to make it 60p? If so, how do you add the pulldown to the footage in FCP?
Click to expand...
Well, to what purpose? To output it to the P2 card? If so, just tell it to "print to tape" using the DVCPRO-HD 720/60p template, and FCP will do it for you automatically.
 
Can pN capture Audio as well. There is a somewhat confusing item in the user guide that would seem to say NO. (In normal operations, not in under/overcrank which i underrstand is audio-less)

I'm assuming from the discussion above, Audio IS recorded in pN modes, right?
 
Yes pN captures audio. pN mode has effect on number of frames of video recorded, but audio stays the same.
 
I know I wasn't a part of this thread from the beginning, but I came searching for answers and you all took care of me. I just wanted to say "thanks".
 
pN with FS-100

pN with FS-100

I'm trying to get my head around all of this. (I'm a new HVX200, FS-100 user)

If I understand correctly, you cannot stream native frames out via FW to a deck or computer. But aren't you suppose to be able to record 720/24pN to the FS-100?

I set the DV Format to Quicktime PN on the FS-100 and set the HVX200 to 720/24pN, but it won't record. Am I missing something?

My delivery is a SD DVD, and I just want to make it look as good as possible.
 
Yes -- you cannot set the HVX to "pN" mode and expect it to work with a FireStore. You'd set it to 720/24p mode, and the FireStore takes care of the "pN" recording.
 
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