MKH 416 = Outdated?

F

filmguy123

New member
Controversial title! Forgive me :)

Not to spark a debate, but in my shopping for a few versatile, long term microphones I seem to be narrowing my search:

Sanken cs3e = great on paper. Via two YouTube listens, my impression was that I didn't love the sound or tonality as much as Sennheiser or Schoeps. Seemed too low-end heavy.

Sennheiser VS Schoeps = both sound amazing, but given my tough-on-gear run'n'gun, international docu work, etc. requirements I am concerned about the durability of the Schoeps VS Senn, which makes me lean towards Senn. As a plus. the Senns are cheaper.

Sennheiser MKH 416 vs 8060 -- I understand Off-Axis forgiveness is better on 8060, which could be a boon for less experienced boom operators I will be forced to work with when traveling. Alternatively, I understand the 416 as a result may give better sound isolation in noisy environments.

Sennheiser MKH 50 vs 8050 -- Best indoor HyperCardiod? I assume this is a worthy upgrade from the AT 4053b? The Schoeps looks great too but given these options are cheaper and would match the sound from my shotgun (plus the durability benefits) it makes me lean Sennheiser. Thoughts? And the 50 vs 8050?

One of my concerns here is the MKH 416 being a dinosaur in terms of design. I know it's industry standard, but in my experience people adopt more of a "not broke, don't fix it" approach and it's just become the defacto pick, even though there may be much better modern mics on the market?

Better to spring for 8060? Or - perhaps even cheaper - the Rode NTG3??

How important is it to match brands for mic between my shotgun and hyper cardiod?

I mostly shoot interviews with the mics, indoor or outdoor depending on project. Sometimes I will camera or cage mount the mic for ambient pickup. Sometimes I will put on a pistol grip connected to a recorder for folley/ambient noise pickup to layer in later. For some projects, I may want to do more of this.

Versatile: Live event. Docu. Corporate branding. Etc.

TANGENT: why do all the top microphone companies start with "S" (Sennheiser, Sanken, Schoeps) and one of the biggest alternative competitors (Rode) start with an R? Serious question. Back in the day I remember hearing that Linkin Park wanted to start with a L to be right next to Limp Bizkit in CD stores. Similar reasoning, to be next to the products in a catalog way back when?


Thanks for the help in deciding!

NOTE: And *YES* I will do personal tests. Just want to know the facts first on the mics before I invest time into personally testing. Will be used with: GH5 w/GH5 audio unit, EVA-1 directly, JuicedLink RiggyMicro, and possibly a SD PreMix-D or PreMix-3 (haven't decided if I will upgrade RiggyMicro and spring for one of those yet).
 
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I've heard good things about the sennheiser mke 600. Is this a microphone worth considering for your purposes? Sort of in the same boat as you are.
 
If you're going to spend $1,000+ on a good mic I would rent a couple different ones and let your own ears decide which one you like best.

Dan : The MKE600 is a great low cost shotgun mic, and definitely my choice at $300. But FilmGuy is looking at much more expensive mics in the $1,000+ range.
 
TheDingo said:
Dan : The MKE600 is a great low cost shotgun mic, and definitely my choice at $300. But FilmGuy is looking at much more expensive mics in the $1,000+ range.
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Thank you. Got ya. I'm interested in how the 600 fairs compared to the 416 or the cs3e. Might be able to put together a test in a couple months.

And good luck Filmguy, I'm interested to see what you choose.
 
Dan_ETP said:
I'm interested in how the 600 fairs compared to the 416 or the cs3e.
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The MKE600 is not in the same performance category at all. While it sound good for a $300 mic, both the 416 and CS3e have a much better capture of the audio they recording. ( you can hear subtle detail that doesn't exist when recording with the cheaper MKE mic ) Also the CS3e is kind of an audio "scalpel", where you can you can easily isolate your subject from any noise in their environment, making for a much better recording. This makes the CS3e a little difficult to use for more than one person because you have to accurately aim the mic to pick up the person you want to record. ( it does not allow for sloppy booming )
 
If you have a 416, keep it. If you can find one used for a very good price, or if there's another brief sale like last Nov when they were US$600 new for a few days, maybe consider it. But new? Why?
I think the popularity is the mic's longevity....Many of them are still going strong years later. Mine is. But you can say the same about my other good mics. The 416 was great in its day. Now, it's OK. If you settle on a 416, maybe look for a used one for around $500 or so... There are a few "bought but never used" 416s around, perhaps from people who bought them during the $600 sale.... Maybe you could get one of those for $550-$700. But still, not my first choice mic theses days.

Comparing the other top mics, the best choice depends on how and where you're going to use them. I'll try (but might fail) to be brief.

If you're working on hard doc situations where you'll face noisy locations and need to suck out good dialog while rejecting street, conference hall, busy office, and other noise...and you have a decent touch with the boompole as TheDingo says (but really, it doesn't take years to develop that touch), and still have a nice sound, consider what I consider my "desert island" mic:
Sanken CS3e

If you're working on sets without ambient noise or you can control ambient noise....and you want a pickup pattern that's slightly wider than the Sanken (which can be handy), and a nicer sound (that frankly won't be noticed by most people in the final video):
Schoeps CMIT5U or maybe MiniCMIT <--and matches great with a Schoeps 641 hyper!)
DPA 4017 (with perhaps the B or C preamp)...

The Sennheiser MKH line fits in here too, though I'm less familiar with their newer mics. The 8060 sure seems compact, though. And their 60s match their 50s and 40s well.

For corporate and some serious doc work, audiences are more forgiving (or perhaps accustomed to) a bit of audio quality degradation in stuff recorded on-the-fly... I mean, assuming decent mic placement.

So consider keeping your Rode NTG4+ (IIRC) for now. It's an OK mic...better than what we used to be able to get for the price. The "NT" in NTG" stands for "Not Terrible" :)
But seriously, considering your budget, if you DON'T buy a $800-$2000 short shotgun mic, then you'll have more money to invest in a top-of-class hyper that you can use for your sit-down (and some on-the-fly) interviews. And if your short-shotgun footage will kinda be b-roll or something, that could work out well.


Here's my bottom line:
Keep the NTG4+ for now. Both for budget reasons and to give you time to get a better sense of which (if any) short shotgun will really increase your production values.
Spend the money you save on a top-notch hyper for your sit-down interviews (and other interior uses).
 
This thread seems to have grown in scope and much of the response has centered around newer vs older tech, but also is considering some pretty expensive options beyond a 416. Like the OP, I do small corporate, but don't do docs and avoid travel as possible. I have to support camera and lighting packages as well as audio. My goal in this regard is to have enough gear to do most things I normally do reasonably well. I don't much care to rent which to me is just a huge PITA; I just want to grab the gear I need and go. I try to have great versatility in my audio kit. Like most everyone, I have gear lust and envy.

It has served me well to invest in all the infra-structure items such as cables, extra shock mounts, mic stands, foam panels, wind gear, spares, really just all the un-glam stuff. For mics, I have worked my way up to mid-range models and have an older SD recorder. In some cases, I have purchased mics and other gear in pairs for redundancy which can also really broaden your audio capability. And as much as I would love to step up again to the next level in mic quality, for what I do, I just don't need it. An NTG3 and 4053b both sound very respectable and certainly good enough for all but big budget corporate. Those gigs are going to have a pro-sound crew. For me, better skills is more important than throwing more money at gear. It has served me well to have more versatility and redundancy in my kit, than to have just a few higher end mics.

Best Regards,
Grant
 
Very well said grant and I 100% resonate with this.

For me, just because I could afford a certain set of mics doesn't mean it's the best use of funds, as my funds aren't unlimited. IE - the Schoeps looks AAA. Is it really going to be worth paying nearly 2x as much for it as a Sennheiser 8060 / MKH 50?

Is the Sennheiser set worth 2x as much as a Rodge NTG3 and AT 4053b pairing?

I'm trying to find something that is robust, durable, long lasting, versatile - and at the best ROI on quality - that can stay with me long term for a broad range of clients. I'm not convinced a $4000 Schoeps mic pair fits that bill, though a $2500 Sennheiser mic pair might be worth it over a $1200 Rode/AT mic pair...

Thanks for all the input, wisdom, and advice so far! Much appreciated.
 
The 416 isn't my first pick, but not because of its age. Although it came out in the 1970s, in the late 90s it was "completely redesigned without altering the essential acoustic properties of the microphones. The goal was, besides the implementation of new production technologies, the tightening of production tolerances"
(http://www.sennheiser.cz/assets/sennheiser/obrazky/dokumenty/MKH Story.pdf). The Schoeps also first came out in the 1970s, and yet it is still one of the priciest and first picks among pros.

And then there is the RCA 44B from 1940, which many record producers still prefer, so much that a company still makes reproductions of them. It's not because they prefer some nostalgic but objectively low-fi sound. This mics sound better than modern ones --- so much so that it caught one DVXUser member's attention (http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?351449-1940-s-Dialog-Sound-Microphone-What-is-it). You can hear for yourself by searching for RCA 44 on Youtube or listening to AEA's playlist.

My advice is, don't judge a mic by its age. The same goes for lenses.

Anyway, the reason the 416 isn't my first pick is because it's pretty laserlike, even for a shotgun. I'd rather have a broader shotgun or hypercardioid.
 
I've seen / heard material recorded using a 416 in the tropics, at the south pole of the world, and I've seen a bent (working) 416 after someone sat on it in a car.
So If you are expecting a rough life for a mic then the 416 would be it for a shotgun mic and an ElectroVoice RE50 if you are thinking a hand mic.
Any mic that has a treaded tube on it will NEVER be as robust as a single tube. Mics I'm referring to are 8060, or any mic with a changeable AA battery etc.
 
So a lightly used MKH 416 for $700 might be my absolute best buy? Schoeps sounds schweet but so does senn and I'm being picky and can barely discern the difference, while not a full time audio pro, I find it highly unlikely that my audiences will appreciate the scheops difference and since no one is renting my gear that'd be a zero-ROI proposition both in terms of $$ and perceivable quality.

Correct me if I am wrong!

Match it with a lightly used MKH 50, if I can find? or is the scheops worth it on the interior dialog end? (robustness still important here). I'm still open to the AT 4053b but it does sound like its earned its rep as a killer budget mic, not neccessarily truly competing with the MKH 50/Schoeps 641?
 
A used 416 would be a good start.... I have changed my kit from 416's to 8060 and 8050 (just so they use the same clips, shock mount etc). Don't buy on eBay if the seller is from China as there are a lot of fake mics out there.
I also just run a 'softie' as wind protection and not a blimp, as its easier to fit into a case and if its that windy to actually need a full blimp then they probably wouldn't shoot in that location anyway.
Another reason I use Sennheiser rather than some of the other brands... Is a good friend of mine is the local Senni rep and other brands would need to sent away for service / repairs.
 
My top picks would be an 8060 and 8050 if buying new.

What's in my kit... I'm frugal so a used MKH 60 and MKH 50 as my primary. I also have a pair of 416's. One for field work, and one stays in the voice booth.
 
filmguy123 said:
So a lightly used MKH 416 for $700 might be my absolute best buy?
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As just mentioned, look out for fake 416s, if you go that route. For used, I'd lean towards buying from a trusted location-audio dealer such as Trew Audio, Location Audio, and Gotham Sound. There are others, but those are the three I have the most personal experience with.

But since 416s are so common, you can probably find one to rent or borrow in Portland. See if it works in the environments you'll be encountering (esp. hard-surfaced interiors, small offices, etc). And in your edit suite, listen carefully to the tracks you get with that and the NTG4+ you already own. Is there enough of a difference to matter?
 
filmguy123 said:
So a lightly used MKH 416 for $700 might be my absolute best buy? Schoeps sounds schweet but so does senn and I'm being picky and can barely discern the difference, while not a full time audio pro, I find it highly unlikely that my audiences will appreciate the scheops difference and since no one is renting my gear that'd be a zero-ROI proposition both in terms of $$ and perceivable quality.
Click to expand...

Now it sounds like you're looking for the most mic per dollar, in which case I'd recommend the Audio-Technica AT875R. To my intermediate ears I actually preferred it in Dan Brockett's shoot-out. It is a fairly recent mic, with very low handling noise because it was designed to be mounted on a camera. Finally, its spread is broader, I think, than the 416, so it could work indoors and out.
 
Idk how the NTG3 isn't really talked about in these conversations on this thread. That microphone is great! Sounds great! Is robust! And has a10 yr warranty. Rode don't fix the microphones when ppl send them in, they replace it completely by sending you a brand new one. I use mine for corporate work and haven't had 1 complaint; actually, people compliment how clean the audio sound. I'd say get the NTG3. It's great indoors (as long as it's not a reverby room) and great outdoors. I chose it over the 416.
 
I've seen people raving about the Aputure Deity, plemty of samples on YouTube against the mighty 416, maybe you could check them out.
For my productions needs i go for the NTG4+. Don't need more ;)
 
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