Cinema EOS Announcement on 19th Jan - EOS R5C

[Guest]

Really? I would say that ergonomics and usability are the big downsides of the C70 - HDMI cable sticking out towards operator (when shooting handheld), mediocre LCD with a flimsy, floppy mount, lack of mounting points, odd choice of non-programmable buttons in prime positions, non-rotating side grip along with a general feeling of it not being balanced (though I suppose this depends on battery size and lens choice).

My everyday camera is the FX6 and to me they are like night and day ergonomics-wise. The only thing I prefer about the C70 is that you can send the camera's focus mag and peaking to an HDMI connected monitor / EVF.

The HDMI out the side is a shame. every other camera has a similar issue just about though. i recall saying how i disliked the side attaching hdmi on the BMP6K and JB got on my case about it, and since then i have eased up about it. why? because it has been over a decade and the MF’ers are still putting the HDMI in that stupid spot. so, considering that is how they are all doing it, of the cameras being made, the C70 is my overall favorite at this time.

- internal ND
- good full grip, but not BMPCC huge.
- flip out screen (since the Canon 60D, i’ve found the side flippy to be useful)
- manual audio controls, while not entirely ideal, much better than the YAGH or hotshot variants
- good battery and media makes shooting not a big care (so many cameras run out of bat or the media sucks)
- light weight enough to shoot handheld (for example the C300 might’ve had a side handle but it was torture on the wrists



there is certainly room for improvement. would be nice to have a heavier duty swivel on the flip screen so a good diopter could be attached without needing to add that zach to contraption.the cable i/o could be ina better place, especially since there is no EVF, they could attach up top or whatever. but at this point i have been shaking my fist at the corporations since at least 2008, and i think they won.

The FX6 has a lot of good too. But at the end of the day it plays a little too C300 style for me. aka niether designed for handheld or shoulder work. gets an oversized handy cam treatment and vaguely resembles bigger professional cameras. certainly the Fx6 is one of the best versions of what it is so far, but also is a bit neither here more there for me.

i just wish there was less reinventing the wheel and more innovation based on succesful designs. DSLR is proven to be the best and ENG has proven to be the best. most other designs are compromises.

in the image above, the top bump of the camera gives a nice notch for SDI/hdmi/xlr input/outputs

things like headphones and usb can go else where.


the operator side could be more similar to ENG controls. those control layouts work excellently for should rigs, and at the same time can work in handheld too. but handheld might see some right hand dominant control, and should might see left hand dominant control. but still, majority of the instant access buttons would be on the op side, for should and tripod pro work. and then dslr style on the right hand grip for incognito or run n gun freestyle. a literal best of both worlds.

 

[Guest]

Yeah, I'm a bit shocked by James and Norbro's positive comments about the c70 ergos.

James and Norbro, have you shot on the C70 extensively in a variety of situations? Personally, I don't know anyone who loves the ergonomics of that camera ( I own one). It has a lot going for it, and it was clearly conceived to be shot handheld, and yet that is exactly where it doesn't feel right. The FX6 is leagues better in that regard, especially if you are shooting for longer stretches.

The number of important bells and whistles that the c70 packs into a relatively small package is indeed fantastic, but the overall ergonomics leave a lot to be desired when shooting with it extensively handheld.

The last point about the non-rotating handle and the balance being off is huge. In my experience, this camera will destroy your wrist if you try to shoot with it all day handheld. The HDMI is indeed seriously problematic since it sticks out exactly where your left hand needs to cradle the camera when pulling focus manually.

You may have me there. but it was an almost instantly familiar feel and i was able to operate it with ease and comfort similar to dslr and mirroless cameras.

i have not used it extensively. so perhaps the buttons might eventually become annoying? the main button/scroll controls i am concerned about being ergonomic are:
- focus
- iris
- iso
- shutter
- WB
- ND

as long as those are easy, then much of the rest i can deal with. menus are menus, etc.

i found it was intuitive for anyone accustomed to Canon DSLR, but with internal ND and physical audio controls on board. that is a big deal really.


The FX6 is a fine camera. i don’t think we’ll have too much disagreement. i just prefer the dslr ergonomics to the Fs5/FX6 baby box with a side handle. The controls are accesible on the side for tripod use, but when going handheld, whether actually in the hand or the shoulder those ergonomics aren’t quite all that amazing. It is a good compromise however, and if the Fx6 had a pilot mic and in-body xlr, my opinion would shift more positive torwards it. but i’d still probably prefer dslr mirrorless. as for the side handle pívot vs fixed, i prefer fixed. perhaps it is my ENG days, i just like the camera to stay one shape. all the modular stuff is over rated.


C70 i see as a “1st gen” iteration, and if they can refine it for the C80 or whatever, it has a ton of potential. all of the small cameras have big issues for me, but the C70 has the most potential. if they relocate the hdmi and xlr, and leave the op side for controls (hence making shoulder and tripod work easier) they’ll have a camera that appeals to video shooters.

i certainly have a hard time letting go of the EVF, especially since the Panasonic S1H has such a good one, and the A7s3 is great too. but i found that a durable flippy screen and good diopter can end up being more what i use for motion capture.- just hate to give up the internal evf since they’re so good now and unceasingly low profile. and in the case of the As73 and FX3, they don’t cost anything apparently. haha.

ultimately the lack of dynamic range pushed me away from the C70.

 

[Guest]

BTW, yeah, sounds like it...no way less than $6500, $7K.

i can’t imagine Canon giving anything a way. they must still be butt hurt about the dslr revolution, because we the consumer actually won for a little while.

 

[morgan_moore]

The concept that the c70 needs refining is dumb. All the problems of the c70 were obvious when it was a pencil sketch

(apart from the quality of the hinge)

 

[Andy9]

The FX6 has a lot of good too. But at the end of the day it plays a little too C300 style for me. aka niether designed for handheld or shoulder work. gets an oversized handy cam treatment and vaguely resembles bigger professional cameras. certainly the Fx6 is one of the best versions of what it is so far, but also is a bit neither here more there for me.

i just wish there was less reinventing the wheel and more innovation based on succesful designs. DSLR is proven to be the best and ENG has proven to be the best. most other designs are compromises.

I know what you mean about the FX6 being neither one thing nor the other. I use it with a Cinebags-type camera support around my waist - this is obviously good for waist-height shooting and also braced against the shoulder (elbow on camera support). Obviously, not everyone shoots this way but I prefer it to shoulder mount and it's a lot more flexible. The rotating handle is great for this kind of shooting.

Even just holding the camera out in front of the body though (DSLR-style?), I don't see how the C70 is better than the FX6. It isn't even lighter. And I don't think the C300s compare either, being top heavy and much heavier than the FX6.

 

[Guest]

The concept that the c70 needs refining is dumb. All the problems of the c70 were obvious when it was a pencil sketch

(apart from the quality of the hinge)

haha, if you look at the C70 for what it could be, it has a lot of potentional to merge the ENG world to the DSLR world.

i personally like both.

there is nothing particularly special about boxes. they should be made for a use, and that is to be operated. cameras, even the C70 is small enough that most boxes like Komodo and Fx6 don’t have particular size advantages.

the C70 side panel on the operator side is too crude and DSLR ish right now, but if they repositioned the hdmi and xlr ports, they could adopt a tried and true operator side controls for the left hand, and tried and true dslr controls for the right hand. the body being full self sufficient yet the top handle adding additional audio options and a prop EVF mounting point with a clean cable rout to the hdmi or sdi.

 

[Guest]

I know what you mean about the FX6 being neither one thing nor the other. I use it with a Cinebags-type camera support around my waist - this is obviously good for waist-height shooting and also braced against the shoulder (elbow on camera support). Obviously, not everyone shoots this way but I prefer it to shoulder mount and it's a lot more flexible. The rotating handle is great for this kind of shooting.

Even just holding the camera out in front of the body though (DSLR-style?), I don't see how the C70 is better than the FX6. It isn't even lighter. And I don't think the C300s compare either, being top heavy and much heavier than the FX6.

The Fx6 is better than the C300mk1-2, as it is smaller, but i meant that the simple controls on the right hand swivel and the lcd on the top handle, and the main controls on the left. it sort of forces that shooting from the cine bag or easy rig style. the float from the belly hover round.

the dslr differs in a few ways:

- when stripped down it is just that bit more compact and less obtrusive, the side flippy or EVF are very low profile, as well
- right hand controls are second to none, and allow the left hand to stay on manual focus or stability.
- combine with a butt stock, the right hand grip allows for easy control.
- shorter body length and low lens mount height allows for tucking up against a wall or placing closer to the floor pov, and while it may not seem like much, it ends up making a difference occasionally. not essential, but nice
- dslr style also works well with cine saddle and float type shooting. although, i wish that mirroless cameras could also add a swivel handle for the added comfort and option. additional wider foot print helps the float stability sometimes, and some people enjoy the option. sadly this is not thought to be added to mirroless cameras yet.


if dslr added better left hand or operator side controls for the tripod and should mount type shooter, then we’d have a very compelling addition to the cinema camera landscape.

 

[Guest]

i still like the DSLR style, but the newer mirrorless style i’m willing to get used to possibly. the C70 right grip is not entirely my preference, even if the spirit of it is in the right place.

 

[Guest]

the base for is dslr-ish, but the expandability can go to familiar pro territory. so the pros can spend the extra money, while the base can still be some what mass produced, on a near prosumer/hobbyist level.

 

[Guest]

Here’s my main issue with this whole debate, everyone says “you can’t” and “you must” and “but i like”


…the mirrorless form factor is as small or smaller than many of the beloved box designs, and it also has enough of a footprint to accomodate essential professional features if designed for it. not quite as inexpensive as the copy paste of dslr mirrorless work.


but that is the thing, is that it is one of those rare situations where it is able to be all things to all operators more or less.

 

[ahalpert]

i certainly have a hard time letting go of the EVF, especially since the Panasonic S1H has such a good one, and the A7s3 is great too. but i found that a durable flippy screen and good diopter can end up being more what i use for motion capture.- just hate to give up the internal evf since they’re so good now and unceasingly low profile. and in the case of the As73 and FX3, they don’t cost anything apparently. haha.

.

Well, the a7siii evf probably costs $500. But the fx3 fan costs $1k. The r5c fan might cost more than that. These are premium fans.

I agree with your last statement about being all things to all operators. I think that it's ideal for you to dictate the handling and operating position to the camera and not the other way around

personally, I'm basically on tripod or gimbal these days. It would be nice in both cases to have aperture, iso, and ND control plus rec start/stop available to my right thumb and forefinger without moving my hand. Probably best achieved with a wired or wireless controller that can clamp onto the gimbal grip or pan handle. Or exposure controls built into gimbal grip, as some units have. My fs7 handle can achieve some of this on tripod if I grip it to pan the camera but I'd rather use the pan handle

 

[DLD]

Eh, R5 is $3,900 and C70 is $5,500. Rumors have 5c splitting the difference at about $4,500. Which would make sense for a bit more thermal paste and an internal $10 fan. In the R5 body.

 

[ahalpert]

Eh, R5 is $3,900 and C70 is $5,500. Rumors have 5c splitting the difference at about $4,500. Which would make sense for a bit more thermal paste and an internal $10 fan. In the R5 body.

I saw that rumored pricing a while back but haven't seen it repeated lately in the list of rumored specs. The historical comparable is the 1DC being released at $15k in Dec 2012 after the 1DX was released at $6800 in March 2012

 

[DLD]

I saw that rumored pricing a while back but haven't seen it repeated lately in the list of rumored specs. The historical comparable is the 1DC being released at $15k in Dec 2012 after the 1DX was released at $6800 in March 2012

Oh, come on. 1D C was a 4K camera in the same body as 1D X.

 

[ahalpert]

Oh, come on. 1D C was a 4K camera in the same body as 1D X.

Huh? Looks like the same sensor. Same everything, or most things at least. And it looks like the 1DX had 3 processors: digic 4 and dual digic 5+ whereas it looks like the 1DC just had dual digic 5+. What am I missing

 

[Clermond]

Eh, R5 is $3,900 and C70 is $5,500. Rumors have 5c splitting the difference at about $4,500. Which would make sense for a bit more thermal paste and an internal $10 fan. In the R5 body.

my guess it will be a bit closer to the Z9, most likely more expensive than the C70. If all rumors are true It will be a top notch hybrid camera without the limitations of the R5 in terms of video. You guys always forget the stills part which has a high benefit in the roi.

 

[morgan_moore]

The Evf on the Sony is about minus $1000

$3g you get it $4g you don’t

a miracle really

 

[ahalpert]

my guess it will be a bit closer to the Z9, most likely more expensive than the C70. If all rumors are true It will be a top notch hybrid camera without the limitations of the R5 in terms of video. You guys always forget the stills part which has a high benefit in the roi.

true but I'm curious about the number of true hybrid shooters. I remember you saying that you're hybrid, and I know there are a number of hybrid shooters on dvxuser. but basically everyone I meet in real life is shooting strictly video or strictly stills. the last time I was paid to shoot stills was about 2 years ago. many stills applications require strobes or at least a speedlight, so it's often not as simple as having the camera. the photographers I meet are aware of the video capabilities of their R5 or whatever but are genuinely disinterested in delving into video

 

[ahalpert]

Holy shit! The r5c can do 60p in 8K according to some leaked official specs from Canon. This is a game-changer. And I don't see how they could sell it for less than the $6500 A1.

https://www.canonrumors.com/here-are-some-canon-eos-r5-c-specifications/

 

[morgan_moore]

There is a way to do hybrid properly and it usually uses multiple things .. maybe a xf605 and stills cams or cine rig plus stills etc.

Once you have a mic and xlr and matte box it’s simplest just to have a second body

my mate used two z6 but will go for a vid cam when he has the funds

one z6 has a 24-200 lens and mic and nd - it’s just a poor man’s vid camera

very rare do I see a coherent stills vid shoot - often too many egos - there should be on director of photography tasked with getting all the assets.. enven if he uses a stills operator for that .. like a b cam operator