Canare Star Quad (is it really the best?)

MattinSTL

MattinSTL

Sound Modulator
Probably like many of the rest of you... I've got hundreds of feet of Canare Star Quad. We all say it ALL the time.

"What cable should I get?"

"Canare Star Quad"

But a while back I ran several cable posts... and one member got me thinking about WHY we always suggest SQ? This guy said I should really check out a relatively unknown cable product... Musilux.

Well I got some samples and while I was impressed... I wasn't initially blown away. The main reason this member suggested that cable was for flexibility. Musilux is said to have NO memory... but in fact it does have a little... so expecting a spaghetti-noodle soft cable (and still getting one that really IS about twice as soft as Canare Star Quad)... I made up some shorties with my samples and basically forgot about the product.

Then a funny thing happened. I couldn't tell for sure, but it seems like the sound I get is almost better whenever the Musilux is in the audio chain. You can find posts from me making fun of people who think that a cable can change sound or reduce coloration of sound... I've always laughed at people who "listen" to cables!

But this feeling that I was hearing some hard to define difference got me curious. So I started doing research about various levels of cable.

Even within Canare's OWN line of cables there are MUCH more expensive mic cables then the Star Quad! Why? If Star Quad is the "end all" cable then why would Canare sell much higher-end cables for the same purpose? The ONLY way it makes sense is because there MUST be a difference in results!

The more I read about cables the more I realized that even if you want to distill all the snake oil out of it... you will end up with scientific reasons why an audible quality difference is possible between cables!

Before I quote the specs on various cables... I'm wondering how many of you have experience outside of Canare Star Quad? What is it that YOU think makes a cable good? Why did you choose the brand you did?

(In case it's not obvious where I'm going with this... I ended up buying a thousand feet of Musilux)
 
It almost sounds like the ME66 scenario: just because it's popular, it doesn't mean it's great! :)
The consensus seems to be though, that a compromise is okay between cost and quality. A ME66 is eons better than the on-board mic, but there's better options out there.....a 416 just costs a lot more.
I'd definitely agree that cables are often overlooked in the audio gathering chain. A Sound Devices recorder with a Schoeps mic....connected with a $3 eBay cable: yikes!

The thing is, you are squeezing at the final [10 or 15] % of quality, and those %'s are definitely hard to achieve. The closer you get to 100% (never really possible with anything) the more difficult/costly/time consuming it gets.

I'd be VERY interested in your Musilux cables, and the specs, etc. especially also because I remember you use quality connectors and take great care in using super good solder also. All very important aspects of a good cable.
 
the starquad is not top of the line cable , its just 2 twisted par which come to eliminate hum and other electromagnetic stuff which you cable pick up while crossing power lines or run near dimmers or HMI cables .
i work with allot of cables from different brands over years , dont have any special one that improved my sound , i found few which ruined my sound by bad shielding and fast wear of the cable skin
if someone can hear difference in sound between 2 good cables with good shield - i dont think so .
canare , gepco , klotz , perevox , gotham , mogami ,proel , muslix any other i have in stock are very good and reliable cables , some of them work for me for more then 8 years . i cant say i ever hear any difference in response in my microphones , i did here huge one when accidentally run not starquad on power line .
the rest is depends on you some will prefer more defended brand that the dolly will not cut it easily others will appreciate the small weight of the cable in their bag , some will like not to have any memory on the cable if they dont like spaghetti
for me the rule n one is who make me the soldering and the quality of his work and connectors which are the week point in the chain
so i just want to say BIG thanks to Matt(yes , you!) who made me 300 feet of my new cables ( canare and muslix) which work grate and the soldering work is one of the best i sow
 
got to be honest, im one of those dumb asses who doesnt think about cables much. a while my band bought quite a substantial pa system, and with it came a BUNCH of Canford Audio cables that ive been using on set ever since. They're great, i havent had one die on me in over a year and a bit. So im not using garbage, but i think i could certainly improve.

im keen to hear your research, matt. personally, i like two types of cables: firstly a good thick, strong cable with as little memory as possible for long runs, and a smaller, thinner cable for hiding cable runs in shots, and also for external cable booms if im using one. At the end of the day, i have to say, all i really want is a cable that lasts a damn long time, and doesnt hum everytime you look at it. :)
 
If Oleg puts his seal of approval on these I gotta try one. :)

What are you charging for a 20' Matt?

Cheers
 
I'll admit it...

My name is Jeremy and I buy cheap cables.

I will run a $1000 mic in a $100 shockmount and on a $300 poll into a $3500 camera using a $3 cable. Why? Because when it comes to it, I am cheap. I did get from Matt a cable and there is a noticable difference in the quality of the mic (noticable in post as well as simply monitoring).

There are a ton of people like me who love sound, but when it comes down to the connections buy whatever is cheapest. I don't know why I do it... actually, I do it because I'm cheap, but there is a difference you can hear between cheap cables and good cables. I have never compared two high quality cables to see which is best, so I really can't comment on that.

I can personally testify to the quality of Matt's cables though. Simply incredible stuff that makes an audible (nice word usage huh?) difference in sound quality. Plus, the one I got is yellow and it's just sexy looking (don't say that doesn't matter, especially if you own a matte box).
 
This is an "introductory price" but I'll do a 20' Musilux for you for $25 plus ship. Trust me it's good stuff.

I'm on my brother's computer before going in to the restaurant... so I'll post the specs later... but this cable is nearly on par with Klotz MC5000 which is about $2.50-2.60 per FOOT wholesale! So yeah... it's GOOD stuff. When I post the full specs later you'll see what I mean... plus I'm using it myself and I'm about to do a blow-out sale on my Star Quad stock.
 
Klotz MC5000
0.8 ounces per foot
12.2 Ohms per 1000’
Conductor capacitance 23 pf per foot
Shield capacitance 38 pf per foot
7.0 mm

Klotz MC2000
.54 ounces per foot
26 Ohms per 1000’
Conductor capacitance 18.3 pf per foot
Shield capacitance 33.5 pf per foot
6.5 mm

Klotz MY206
0.48 ounces per foot
26 Ohms per 1000’
Conductor capacitance 18.3 pf per foot
Shield capacitance 33.5 pf per foot
6.0 mm

Canare Star Quad
.59 ounces per foot
29.9 Ohms per 1000’
Conductor capacitance 46 pf per foot
Shield capacitance 57 pf per foot
6.0 mm

Musilux
.6 ounces per foot
16.75 Ohms per 1000’
Conductor capacitance 21 pf per foot
Shield capacitance 39 pf per foot
6.35 mm

So what does this mean?

Musilux is 25% LIGHTER WEIGHT then MC5000 although MC5000 is 25% LOWER resistance... but MC5000 is SIX TIMES the price!

Musilux is NEARLY EQUAL to MC5000 in both shield and conductor capacitance... and in fact it is actually SLIGHTLY BETTER in this spec!

LOWER IS BETTER:

Musilux has 45% LOWER resistance per foot then Canare Star Quad. (so nearly HALF)
Musilux has 55% LOWER conductor capacitance per foot then Star Quad. (OVER HALF)
Musilux has 32% LOWER shield capacitance per foot then Star Quad. (one third lower)
Musilux is within about 2% of the same weight as Star Quad.
Musilux is 100% FULLY shielded versus Star Quad's 95% braided shield.
Musilux is much softer and more flexible then Star Quad (perhaps twice as soft and flexible?)

So anyway... this is just some stuff for you guys to think about. I'm going to get some of this into the hands of various forum members and we'll see what everybody has to say about it... both upon receipt and also over the course of time. I was so impressed with this product that I actually sent a letter to the guy who designed this cable and told him that I would do my best to enlighten the video community about his cable. Maybe by this time next year a hundred of you guys will have at least one of these cables and you can tell everybody what you like about it... or don't like about it. When it comes to audio I'm really picky about my gear... and this stuff changed my mind about Star Quad.
 
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Does this new cable have 2 twisted pair like StarQuad?
This has been mentioned before in this thread but thats
why Star Quad is so popular. The double twisted construction
rejects hum and noise from lights etc. This comes at a price it can not
be as bendy as some other cables. Just because a cable has less resistance
it does not mean it will be better in a video enviroment.
 
If anyone wants to send me their exotic fancy cables I will be happy to record a shootout. Personally, I don't think anyone will be able to pick them out of a lineup.

What you are paying for here is flexible shielding (in my opinion). A relatively cheap foil sheild cable will provide superior interference rejection, but this type of cable is not optimal for situations where you need to handle the cable constantly.
 
tigeba said:
If anyone wants to send me their exotic fancy cables I will be happy to record a shootout. Personally, I don't think anyone will be able to pick them out of a lineup.

What you are paying for here is flexible shielding (in my opinion). A relatively cheap foil sheild cable will provide superior interference rejection, but this type of cable is not optimal for situations where you need to handle the cable constantly.
Click to expand...

I agree that after a certain point in quality it would probably take lab equipment to tell a difference in signal quality. So you probably are looking for other qualities in a cable like flexibility, durability, etc. I am intrigued with the Musilux cable. I had not heard of it prior to Matt bringing it to our attention. It uses a conductive polymer inner shield rather than foil or a braid. I'm thinking that it should hold up to constant handling.

http://www.wirelux.com/category.aspx?categoryID=1

I'm in the market for some longer (100') XLR cables that need to hold up to frequent setup. I was planning on using Star Quad but I think I will give this stuff a go. Hey, Matt! ....

-Dan
 
http://www.markertek.com/Product.as...AUDIOCAB&prodClass=AXLRXLR&mfg=&search=0&off=

This is what I use. For the price, I cannot find a better price for pre made canare star quads with neutrik connectors. I thought about making mic cable myself since I make all my RG6/59, Cat5/6, etc but I don't use enough for that savings difference. I haven't soldered in a long time.

The musilux looks very interesting as does Mogami. I think Ill buy some of Matt's to compare, but I am very sure I will NOT be able to tell the difference sound wise. From experience buying massive quantities of spools from Belden, Liberty, West Penn all the major wire manufacturers, specs will tell you one thing, but the overwhelming majority cannot hear the difference between a zip cord from Radio Shack to Belden's most expensive speaker wire.
 
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I'm sorry if I implied that you could hear a difference in a line-up... the main reason I like this cable is it's supple feel.

Also, being of scientific mind, I like knowing that no matter how long (or short) of a run... the cable's impedence is SO LOW that this cable will not alter or impart any electrical characteristics on the electrical signal it passes.

Capacitance is stored charge... resistance is futile... sorry... I mean resistance is... impedence. For a cable to ADD only about HALF the additional resistance... AND introduce only HALF of the capacitance... for EVERY foot (especially interesting in longer runs)... I just can't see how it's a bad thing?

I'm not trying to talk anybody into anything here... just putting the info out there for whoever may find it worth checking out.

Please look through a Markertek catalog... Star Quad... aka L-4E6S is on page 25. It's $0.36 per foot... ironically every time I've tried to order some they are out of whatever I need. I get NOTHING from Markertek! But the point is look just under that at Canare L-2T2S... it's smaller diameter twisted pair for how much? $.35 per foot. So how could a smaller cable cost nearly the same? Lower resistance/impedence is worth something and costs $ to produce. The ONLY way to lower resistance is to EITHER improve the quality of the conductive material OR increase the diameter of the conductive material... but what happens when you increase the diameter of the conductive material? Correct! The CAPACITANCE goes UP. So how is it that you can LOWER capacitance AND lower resistance? You guessed it... spend your money on better copper. In fact if you begin to study all the cables from all the manufacturers listed in the markertek catalog you will start to see a pattern forming between resistance/impedence/capacitance... and PRICE.

Clearly this stuff matters to SOMEBODY... I'm just putting it out there... and for a little while I'm offering to hook forum members up with some to try out for themselves and see what they think of it.

I've been very impressed by it... your mileage may vary.
 
bloodyjack said:
Does this new cable have 2 twisted pair like StarQuad?
This has been mentioned before in this thread but thats
why Star Quad is so popular. The double twisted construction
rejects hum and noise from lights etc. This comes at a price it can not
be as bendy as some other cables. Just because a cable has less resistance
it does not mean it will be better in a video enviroment.
Click to expand...


Since several people have commented that 100% shielding won't cut it around power lines and lights... would unshielded Romex induce any hum? How about a magnetic ballast flo light? How about an extension cord or a surge protector or multi-way electrical outlet?

How about ALL of those things with the mic cable wrapped all over everything?

CLICK HERE for some stupid footage

Anybody want to tell me how to force some RFI or EMI into this cable? I'm eager to test the limits.
 
You're kidding right? Is that sarcasm? (laughing) Clearly I'm not one for formal methodology... but I'm open to try anything that anybody suggests.

All I'm saying is that I think I can wrap as much of this all over any power source you come up with and I bet it will still pass a flawless mic signal. This was running Oktava directly into DVX... I'll do a 24/96 WAVE with the 671/FP24 if you think it's needed.

I'm a simpleton. I like PROOF. If somebody proves something to me then I'll never question it again... and I'll be a proponent of that person's POV from then on.

I'm sure there are cases where a quad cable may be needed... but I'm having trouble imagining that situation. My gut says this is an me66 thing again. It seems crazy to me that any company would pump out a million miles of cable that would be worthless as soon as it had to cross a power line or get next to a light... especially a cable which is sold for professional road and studio use.

I hope you liked that Yankee... that cable will be on your doorstep in a few days and you can try your best to ruin it. Seriously.
 
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I think that it sounds good, really good. Yesterday I was just screwing around making some audio samples of different shotgun mics using one of my infamous $3 cables and you can hear the cable throughout. In fact, when the cable was near a softbox light you could hear the light through the cable (not the mic).

I just thought these results were amazing, but then again, I'm comparing it to a $3 cable. What do I know about cables anyway though.

-Jeremy
 
Glad your enjoying the Musilux Matt. I use it for misc recording all the time, but I don't have much experience with it around dimmers and powerful lights. Those are the 2 scenarios in which I wasn't sure if it would hold up. I'm sure it will be fine (or better) than Star Quad 99% of the time, but in the 1%, Star Quad will probably save your butt. Or maybe not :)

Sent you a PM.
 
I'll try to put these in a situation like that... and I'll do the exact same thing with Star Quad. I'd like to hear it for myself... just to see how close the cable needs to be... or how powerful of a light is needed... or dimmer, etc.

I wasn't trying to say that Star Quad is pointless either (just like earlier I wasn't trying to say that you can pick a particular cable out of a line-up... people are extrapolating my statements into "any case scenarios" when I specify a particular case)... I'm sure there are times when a Star Quad cable may actually be needed, but I'm wondering how common that is? I also wonder if in the one out of a hundred, thousand, whatever times you get some noise if you couldn't just whip the cable off the object that's causing a problem? More then that I wonder if in reality this problem would ever arrise for 99% of us?
 
MattinSTL said:
I'm sure there are times when a Star Quad cable may actually be needed, but I'm wondering how common that is? I also wonder if in the one out of a hundred, thousand, whatever times you get some noise if you couldn't just whip the cable off the object that's causing a problem? More then that I wonder if in reality this problem would ever arrise for 99% of us?
Click to expand...

I totally agree with you. Then again, I don't make a living off of this stuff and can take the 3 mins to rearrange cables. Especially since I am most likely going to be the one in charge of setting up the lights and worrying about power as well.

When I first ordered Musilux, I asked the guy on the phone (can't remember his name) about the differences between it and Star Quad - he basically said the same kind of thing. In most scenarios, there won't be a difference. There could be times when noise might call for star Quad, but those are probably the times when there are bigger problems than just a mic cable.

Cable's cheap. Get some of both. Buy some from Matt. This is a great service he's offering at little or no benefit to himself.
 
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