Ought2bCommitted
Veteran
MattC said:
Amen to that....
Recommend me a film school?
- Thread starter sd006
- Start date
Amen to that....
Ought2bCommitted
Veteran
And was I preaching? I didn't have my collar on. I wonder if that's a sin... 
dougspice
Veteran
Well said, Matt. You can learn the skills anywhere, if you're persistent enough. But you can't develop that network of motivated and likeminded people anywhere, and you can't simulate that kind of experience.
I too have gotten and continue to get paying jobs from my ex-professors and faculty. USC has been a major source of both income and positive press for my little company in the past year. Now, it's not yet to the point where I've broken even with my student loans, but it'll get there...
I too have gotten and continue to get paying jobs from my ex-professors and faculty. USC has been a major source of both income and positive press for my little company in the past year. Now, it's not yet to the point where I've broken even with my student loans, but it'll get there...
Greggl
Well-known member
Matt totally tapped it.
Film school, due to its cost and the atmosphere is a bit of a acid dip. You either survive
and build up a thicker skin or you melt into goo. If you stay home and rent movies
and shoot, you're missing the competitive envirnoment that is inspiring every day.
You replace it with a group thats willing to put, for lack of a better term, 'crap' up
on the fridge and call it amazing. They are amazed at the fact that you created,
rather than assessing what you created. That doesnt happen at a good school.
Your peers are the challenge.
I've got work on two academy nominated films and relish all the contacts and
work I've done. I owe it to the 'shallow end of the pool' where I learned to
swim. All the dynamics were the same, just he scale was different.
Film school, due to its cost and the atmosphere is a bit of a acid dip. You either survive
and build up a thicker skin or you melt into goo. If you stay home and rent movies
and shoot, you're missing the competitive envirnoment that is inspiring every day.
You replace it with a group thats willing to put, for lack of a better term, 'crap' up
on the fridge and call it amazing. They are amazed at the fact that you created,
rather than assessing what you created. That doesnt happen at a good school.
Your peers are the challenge.
I've got work on two academy nominated films and relish all the contacts and
work I've done. I owe it to the 'shallow end of the pool' where I learned to
swim. All the dynamics were the same, just he scale was different.
Robert Eldon
Well-known member
You might consider the New York Film Academy.
www.nyfa.com
They have 4 week, 8 week, 1 year intensive courses and it's all about filmmaking. They have locations in New York and Los Angeles (and others).
www.nyfa.com
They have 4 week, 8 week, 1 year intensive courses and it's all about filmmaking. They have locations in New York and Los Angeles (and others).
MattC
Veteran
Weston said:
And what do you do in Film/Video? Why do you suggest that? What life experiences do you have to back that up? Not trying to be snide, but since we're talking about a choice someone is making which, in all likelihood will effect the rest of their life, I'd like for you to qualify your opinion so it can be weighed accordingly.
This decision is a little bigger then which camcorder to buy....
Matt
Mythfit
Well-known member
My 2 cents.
Some people are able to pick up a book and learn on their own, others learn better in classroom.
Yes it is true that you will learn more about making film by doing it then you will in a lecture environment, but when you go out and do it where will you get your crew? Its been said that if you hang out with other people who have a passion for film then you can crew up each others projects, well that’s a nice fantasy but it rarely works out that way. Your friends might say they are interested but they don’t know what a muti day shoot involves, other film makers are interested, but in reality they are going to be more interested in their own projects then in yours. I really don’t want 5 people on my crew who all want to be directors, I want an aspiring DP, and an aspiring sound guy and an aspiring AD, etc. I want specialists.
Can you do it on your own? Of course you can, but if you have the opportunity to go to school, I would say go, unless of course you don’t really have a passion for it. If you just want to be able to show people a few little pieces you made when you were younger to the guys at the office someday, then don’t bother. There are lots and lots of people in film school who lack the passion and are just coasting along.
A lot has been said about what you don’t learn at film school, here is what you will learn; you will learn not to make bone head mistakes. You will learn to white balance the first time out, you will learn how to make pretty images, you will feel confident in your ability to light a scene, maybe you don’t want to be a DP, but you had better understand what your DP is doing. You will learn how to capture clean audio, you will understand proper script format so that you don’t try to submit a script that will be rejected out of hand just because the page numbers are in the wrong place. Notice all these things are technical, and yes, they can be learned from a book. What a book doesn’t have is a hard ass lighting teacher telling you your project is not good enough even though you have already put 7 hours into tweaking it in spite of the fact that your deathly ill and should be in bed, and setting a standard of excellence that while to you is unreasonable and just plain mean is actually the base level on a professional set. The book doesn’t have a writing teacher who will inspire you and help adjust your scripts and provide feedback that your mother isn’t qualified or even able to give, she thinks all your stuff is wonderful, everyone needs someone to tell them its not.
Douglas Adams used to say, “I love deadlines, I love the great whooshing sound they make as they go by.” Perhaps I’m not the most disciplined person in the world, but without deadlines I wouldn’t get half the work done that I do. Maybe your more disciplined then that, maybe you can set aside the money you would have spent on film school, get an apartment, get up every morning and work on your scripts, do your pre production, locate talented crews, find actors, learn acting so you can recognize when your actors are doing a good job, get locations, make budgets, make schedules, etc. etc. etc. and get it all done competently the first time so your not wasting money and other peoples time when your shoot day rolls around.
If you can learn the skills on your own, then do it. But if you have the opportunity to go to school, then go, but do it with the commitment to work harder then anyone else there, otherwise don’t waste your time.
Remember that a degree in film doesn’t mean squat in the industry, but the reel in your hand when you graduate can mean a great deal if you put in the effort.
Just so you know where I’m coming from; I myself was an actor for a very long time, and when I decided I wanted to learn what was happening on the other side of the camera I decided to go back to school to learn it. I’m still in school but I am also working in a professional setting for a small production company. None of the skills I learned are going to waste.
Some people are able to pick up a book and learn on their own, others learn better in classroom.
Yes it is true that you will learn more about making film by doing it then you will in a lecture environment, but when you go out and do it where will you get your crew? Its been said that if you hang out with other people who have a passion for film then you can crew up each others projects, well that’s a nice fantasy but it rarely works out that way. Your friends might say they are interested but they don’t know what a muti day shoot involves, other film makers are interested, but in reality they are going to be more interested in their own projects then in yours. I really don’t want 5 people on my crew who all want to be directors, I want an aspiring DP, and an aspiring sound guy and an aspiring AD, etc. I want specialists.
Can you do it on your own? Of course you can, but if you have the opportunity to go to school, I would say go, unless of course you don’t really have a passion for it. If you just want to be able to show people a few little pieces you made when you were younger to the guys at the office someday, then don’t bother. There are lots and lots of people in film school who lack the passion and are just coasting along.
A lot has been said about what you don’t learn at film school, here is what you will learn; you will learn not to make bone head mistakes. You will learn to white balance the first time out, you will learn how to make pretty images, you will feel confident in your ability to light a scene, maybe you don’t want to be a DP, but you had better understand what your DP is doing. You will learn how to capture clean audio, you will understand proper script format so that you don’t try to submit a script that will be rejected out of hand just because the page numbers are in the wrong place. Notice all these things are technical, and yes, they can be learned from a book. What a book doesn’t have is a hard ass lighting teacher telling you your project is not good enough even though you have already put 7 hours into tweaking it in spite of the fact that your deathly ill and should be in bed, and setting a standard of excellence that while to you is unreasonable and just plain mean is actually the base level on a professional set. The book doesn’t have a writing teacher who will inspire you and help adjust your scripts and provide feedback that your mother isn’t qualified or even able to give, she thinks all your stuff is wonderful, everyone needs someone to tell them its not.
Douglas Adams used to say, “I love deadlines, I love the great whooshing sound they make as they go by.” Perhaps I’m not the most disciplined person in the world, but without deadlines I wouldn’t get half the work done that I do. Maybe your more disciplined then that, maybe you can set aside the money you would have spent on film school, get an apartment, get up every morning and work on your scripts, do your pre production, locate talented crews, find actors, learn acting so you can recognize when your actors are doing a good job, get locations, make budgets, make schedules, etc. etc. etc. and get it all done competently the first time so your not wasting money and other peoples time when your shoot day rolls around.
If you can learn the skills on your own, then do it. But if you have the opportunity to go to school, then go, but do it with the commitment to work harder then anyone else there, otherwise don’t waste your time.
Remember that a degree in film doesn’t mean squat in the industry, but the reel in your hand when you graduate can mean a great deal if you put in the effort.
Just so you know where I’m coming from; I myself was an actor for a very long time, and when I decided I wanted to learn what was happening on the other side of the camera I decided to go back to school to learn it. I’m still in school but I am also working in a professional setting for a small production company. None of the skills I learned are going to waste.
Daniel_Runyon
Well-known member
"We don't need no education
We dont need no thought control
No dark sarcasm in the classroom
Teachers leave them kids alone
Hey! Teachers! Leave them kids alone!
All in all it's just another brick in the wall.
All in all you're just another brick in the wall."
"If you don't eat yer meat, you can't have any pudding. How can you
have any pudding if you don't eat yer meat?"
Might I suggest an alternative view.....that of mother **** "the industry". I urge you to flee with all might and great speed anything that you would refer to as "the industry". I've seen the phrase "the industry" bandied about by posters throughout my time on this and other filmmaking forums....often used in a subtle, bragging way to give vaque hints that the poster is above the lowly wannabes...for example:
WannabePoster has either said something or asked a question.
BigTimePro replies with something that somewhere includes the phrase "here in the industry we do this and wouldn't think of doing that".
I am begging you...if you ever feel as if referring to yourself as being "in the industry" is something to be proud of then contact me for immediate assistence...I'll do whatever I can to help you find healing.
Film schools seem to me to be producing industry drones and I would not think that to be beneficial to our culture or collective conciousness. Learning how to imitate "industry standard" is not doing any of us any real good. It is only contributing to the great dumbing down of our society.
I would find far more value in a solitary artist who learns his/her craft and then spends the rest of their time dreaming up content than becoming another cog. When you get out of film school you'll have enormous debt from student loans and credit card living...you'll then be more or less forced into any slot "in the industry" that you can find to fit into.....just a brick in the wall trying to make a living with very little time to just relax into the recesses of your deeper conciousness and explore for content and love. Sure, you might work on up the chain to better and better positions, but your mind and soul will still be more or less consumed by "the industry".
Industry in general is more and more becoming the biggest societal pain in the ass........the needs of the industry have come to far outweigh the needs of humanity....that is both sad and terrifying. Mother **** "the industry".
As for my qualifications, I am satisfied with them.
We dont need no thought control
No dark sarcasm in the classroom
Teachers leave them kids alone
Hey! Teachers! Leave them kids alone!
All in all it's just another brick in the wall.
All in all you're just another brick in the wall."
"If you don't eat yer meat, you can't have any pudding. How can you
have any pudding if you don't eat yer meat?"
Might I suggest an alternative view.....that of mother **** "the industry". I urge you to flee with all might and great speed anything that you would refer to as "the industry". I've seen the phrase "the industry" bandied about by posters throughout my time on this and other filmmaking forums....often used in a subtle, bragging way to give vaque hints that the poster is above the lowly wannabes...for example:
WannabePoster has either said something or asked a question.
BigTimePro replies with something that somewhere includes the phrase "here in the industry we do this and wouldn't think of doing that".
I am begging you...if you ever feel as if referring to yourself as being "in the industry" is something to be proud of then contact me for immediate assistence...I'll do whatever I can to help you find healing.
Film schools seem to me to be producing industry drones and I would not think that to be beneficial to our culture or collective conciousness. Learning how to imitate "industry standard" is not doing any of us any real good. It is only contributing to the great dumbing down of our society.
I would find far more value in a solitary artist who learns his/her craft and then spends the rest of their time dreaming up content than becoming another cog. When you get out of film school you'll have enormous debt from student loans and credit card living...you'll then be more or less forced into any slot "in the industry" that you can find to fit into.....just a brick in the wall trying to make a living with very little time to just relax into the recesses of your deeper conciousness and explore for content and love. Sure, you might work on up the chain to better and better positions, but your mind and soul will still be more or less consumed by "the industry".
Industry in general is more and more becoming the biggest societal pain in the ass........the needs of the industry have come to far outweigh the needs of humanity....that is both sad and terrifying. Mother **** "the industry".
As for my qualifications, I am satisfied with them.
MattC
Veteran
Daniel,
I'm really, really glad you made this post. Your thinking is very different from mine, but I think you've actually put your view out there in a way the OP will be able to use. In fact, I think your post will probably do more to send him to film school than any other.
I also knew musicians and composers who felt the same way. Except usually they weren't musicians or composers really - they were waiters or temp workers or fast food jocks.... The wouldn't take a "society gig" as that was playing for the man, or a bunch of idiots eating fancy finger foods and talking instead of listening to you play. Well ok. But I decided early on that if I was going to have to earn money, I would earn it by playing. The best gigs don't pay much. So you fill in around those with broadway shows, events, corp gigs, studio work for jingles, what ever. Maybe you go on the road, play with a legacy band, work a resort... It wont all be playing the Vanguard... But as you grow, mature and progress, you wind up doing less and less of the bullshit and more of what you want to do. Maybe you taking a teaching position to augment your income. Is that selling out??? And by the way, even a society gig has merit. At least your playing. And if you can't figure out subtle ways to challenge yourself and the other musicians your working with while playing "Cherry Pink and Apple Blossom White" for a bunch of blue hairs, shame on YOU.
The idea of being a "starving artist" is great when you're 18. When you're 38 and want to be able to also have a family and live a decent lifestyle while also doing what you love it sucks - at least to me.
So this is a good perspective kid, wherever you went off to (OP) if your goal is to hone your craft and make the connections necessary to actually make a living in - wait for it.... wait for it.... "the industry"! Then take the advice of those advocating film school. If you would rather travel the path of "solitary artist" then do it on your own. Just make sure you can also say "would you like fries with that?"
Ok that wasn't kind, but it was funny.
Matt
I'm really, really glad you made this post. Your thinking is very different from mine, but I think you've actually put your view out there in a way the OP will be able to use. In fact, I think your post will probably do more to send him to film school than any other.
I also knew musicians and composers who felt the same way. Except usually they weren't musicians or composers really - they were waiters or temp workers or fast food jocks.... The wouldn't take a "society gig" as that was playing for the man, or a bunch of idiots eating fancy finger foods and talking instead of listening to you play. Well ok. But I decided early on that if I was going to have to earn money, I would earn it by playing. The best gigs don't pay much. So you fill in around those with broadway shows, events, corp gigs, studio work for jingles, what ever. Maybe you go on the road, play with a legacy band, work a resort... It wont all be playing the Vanguard... But as you grow, mature and progress, you wind up doing less and less of the bullshit and more of what you want to do. Maybe you taking a teaching position to augment your income. Is that selling out??? And by the way, even a society gig has merit. At least your playing. And if you can't figure out subtle ways to challenge yourself and the other musicians your working with while playing "Cherry Pink and Apple Blossom White" for a bunch of blue hairs, shame on YOU.
The idea of being a "starving artist" is great when you're 18. When you're 38 and want to be able to also have a family and live a decent lifestyle while also doing what you love it sucks - at least to me.
So this is a good perspective kid, wherever you went off to (OP) if your goal is to hone your craft and make the connections necessary to actually make a living in - wait for it.... wait for it.... "the industry"! Then take the advice of those advocating film school. If you would rather travel the path of "solitary artist" then do it on your own. Just make sure you can also say "would you like fries with that?"
Ok that wasn't kind, but it was funny.
Matt
Daniel_Runyon
Well-known member
MattC said:
Actually, I make my living (with wife and son) through my video artistry. I also regularly interact with a true living legend of independent film who is hard friggin core a solitary artist....in the brief time I've known him (bout three years or so) he's traveled to more countries than I knew there were and made some truly amazing art. He's done nothing but make films for several decades now...he's definately not rich, but he gets to live a life....an absolutely amazing life that should be enough to satisfy anyone. And BTW, he's been completely digital for over a decade and works with little 60i Sony cams.
I wouldn't suggest this for everyone necessarily, it takes a special breed of soul...but if one is such a soul then let these words be of some small stimulation to urge in a different direction.
Paul Coleman
Veteran
MattC said:
sd006, I've boiled down this thread to the salient parts to save you time and money. See my synopsis above.
MattC
Veteran
Daniel,
I respect what your saying and in fact, it is the path I've chosen for myself. But I'm an older guy, I'm a partner in a couple of other businesses and I have no dreams of making it in Hollywood. I recently returned from Africa for a doc I want to do on Human Rights education. But even if I self fund it, and I may have to, it'll still cost several thousand to produce, with gear I already own... So I don't think you're crazy or at least if you are then so am I...
But when I see a young person talk about film school, I'm assuming that what they want IS to establish themselves in the industry, and if not "make it" in television or film, at least wind up with say a nice production house catering to commercial clients. That seems to be their goal and I believe that if that is the career they are choosing, then attending the right school could be of tremendous benefit.
Also, I don't think all schools are the same. I've had friends go through the film program at NYU and that certainly didn't turn them into an industry drone.. Maybe the filmschools on the west coast are different? I would imagine so and would certainly use that difference to my advantage depending on what I wanted to do.
But you're right, if your goal is say to become the next Michael Moore, then film school is not a necessity.
I'd still go just for the sex...
Matt
I respect what your saying and in fact, it is the path I've chosen for myself. But I'm an older guy, I'm a partner in a couple of other businesses and I have no dreams of making it in Hollywood. I recently returned from Africa for a doc I want to do on Human Rights education. But even if I self fund it, and I may have to, it'll still cost several thousand to produce, with gear I already own... So I don't think you're crazy or at least if you are then so am I...
But when I see a young person talk about film school, I'm assuming that what they want IS to establish themselves in the industry, and if not "make it" in television or film, at least wind up with say a nice production house catering to commercial clients. That seems to be their goal and I believe that if that is the career they are choosing, then attending the right school could be of tremendous benefit.
Also, I don't think all schools are the same. I've had friends go through the film program at NYU and that certainly didn't turn them into an industry drone.. Maybe the filmschools on the west coast are different? I would imagine so and would certainly use that difference to my advantage depending on what I wanted to do.
But you're right, if your goal is say to become the next Michael Moore, then film school is not a necessity.
I'd still go just for the sex...
Matt
MattC said:
I've been reading all the replies, this thread's been pretty much hijacked.
My simple question was to gather a list of top film schools in the U.S., and I only see a couple of direct responses (e.g. Columbia, NYU, NYFA). It's certainly an interesting thread, but I don't have anything to add to the "film school vs school of hard knocks debate." I'm not here to promote a brand, I just wanted the honest opinions of filmmakers to recommend top schools.
MattC
Veteran
Sorry....
I think you've been given some good info here on what to look for IN a filmschool. But maybe it would help if you told us what you want to do?
If you just want the top four, you've already been given them: USC, UCLA, Columbia and NYU. Without any other info, if you can get into one of those, that would probably be your best bet.
And by the way, if all you want is a list without any other input, why ask a board? Just google it...
Matt
I think you've been given some good info here on what to look for IN a filmschool. But maybe it would help if you told us what you want to do?
If you just want the top four, you've already been given them: USC, UCLA, Columbia and NYU. Without any other info, if you can get into one of those, that would probably be your best bet.
And by the way, if all you want is a list without any other input, why ask a board? Just google it...
Matt
sd006 said:
As you can see from my first post, I'm just gathering a list. I didn't want to promote my brand, I just wanted input from real filmmakers. Google just gives me stuff like FilmSchools.com (which doesn't even list NYFA, so maybe they just list the schools that pay them, I don't know).
I know I'm going to reach serious filmmakers here, as DVX100's aren't cheap.
MattC
Veteran
Ok well if you read my initial post, and think it has merit then you've just radically reduced the number of schools for consideration. Look if your goal is to work in Hollywood there's only one or two top schools to choose. It's not like the list is long... LOL! TOP film schools is like asking about TOP music schools - there are only about four TOP schools of either kind in the country that meet all the criteria and are also located in epicenters of activity (part of what make them a TOP school). So if your only interested in examining the best of the best, you already have your answer.
And as far as "just gathering a list, without promoting your brand" whatever that means, is pretty pointless. One school may better prepare you for a career in Television while another may prepare you better for a career in features while another may prepare you better for a career in advertising. How can someone advise you without knowing your goals?
Matt
And as far as "just gathering a list, without promoting your brand" whatever that means, is pretty pointless. One school may better prepare you for a career in Television while another may prepare you better for a career in features while another may prepare you better for a career in advertising. How can someone advise you without knowing your goals?
Matt
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