Jim Brennan
VHS Member Old Skool
Re: New motherboard and processors
ooh, I love this site. ;D
ooh, I love this site. ;D
New motherboard and processors
- Thread starter Jim Brennan
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BEENYWEENIES
Active member
Re: New motherboard and processors
[quote author=David Jimerson link=board=Links;num=1105501094;start=15#19 date=01/25/05 at 07:49:05]Good post; however, some points of disagreement.
Maxtor Diamonds have faster access than WD Caviars with no higher of a failure rate. This comes from lots of experience with both. I’m actually running both. You’ll be fine with either.[/quote]
The Maxtor DiamondMax has an average seek time of 9.0ms, whereas the caviar has a seek time of 8.9.... No major difference but in RAID configuration this wouldn't matter much anyway. Are you referring to the burst speeds?
I'm sure you're right about the Maxtor Diamonds having a high survival rate, maybe I am just biased because I've had three maxtor drives fail on me and not one Western Digital has ever gone down (though I'm sure it happens).
I would 100% agree with you that having your OS/programs on a seperate "master" drive is important for media work (even photoshop will get some boost from this), and the RAID system should be used as your media drive, I did forget to mention that part. I have three drives in my system, two in RAID 0 configuration and 1 120MB drive for the OS and programs.
I don't agree, however, that it is overkill to use RAID for media work, people use VERY pricey 10,000RPM drives, so why not RAID? Having 2 or more layers of DV footage (24p or otherwise) on the timeline with FX applied, music tracks, transitions etc. and you will need that extra bandwidth without a doubt unless you don't care about real-time previews or render times. If you are only doing wedding video work with a simple A/B setup and no effects, then it may not be needed. Even then, hard drives are so cheap and RAID tools so plentiful (free with virtually all new motherboards) that there is really no reason not to set one up. It does, as you point out, double the chance of drive failure, but then again if you are using good quality drives and backing up your work as you should be, then it is not much more risky than a single drive setup in my opinion.
I did some tests before and after installing my RAID setup and my previews in Vegas went from hovering around 24fps (for 29.97 footage) on medium quality to unwavering, full-on 29.97 after the RAID was installed and used. I can preview Magic Bulleted footage (24p) on the timeline at around 14fps. Before the RAID, Magic Bullet would slow my previews to a dead crawl of like 6fps. That's real results in my opinion, and worth the extra 100 bux for an additional drive.
[quote author=David Jimerson link=board=Links;num=1105501094;start=15#19 date=01/25/05 at 07:49:05]Good post; however, some points of disagreement.
Maxtor Diamonds have faster access than WD Caviars with no higher of a failure rate. This comes from lots of experience with both. I’m actually running both. You’ll be fine with either.[/quote]
The Maxtor DiamondMax has an average seek time of 9.0ms, whereas the caviar has a seek time of 8.9.... No major difference but in RAID configuration this wouldn't matter much anyway. Are you referring to the burst speeds?
I'm sure you're right about the Maxtor Diamonds having a high survival rate, maybe I am just biased because I've had three maxtor drives fail on me and not one Western Digital has ever gone down (though I'm sure it happens).
I would 100% agree with you that having your OS/programs on a seperate "master" drive is important for media work (even photoshop will get some boost from this), and the RAID system should be used as your media drive, I did forget to mention that part. I have three drives in my system, two in RAID 0 configuration and 1 120MB drive for the OS and programs.
I don't agree, however, that it is overkill to use RAID for media work, people use VERY pricey 10,000RPM drives, so why not RAID? Having 2 or more layers of DV footage (24p or otherwise) on the timeline with FX applied, music tracks, transitions etc. and you will need that extra bandwidth without a doubt unless you don't care about real-time previews or render times. If you are only doing wedding video work with a simple A/B setup and no effects, then it may not be needed. Even then, hard drives are so cheap and RAID tools so plentiful (free with virtually all new motherboards) that there is really no reason not to set one up. It does, as you point out, double the chance of drive failure, but then again if you are using good quality drives and backing up your work as you should be, then it is not much more risky than a single drive setup in my opinion.
I did some tests before and after installing my RAID setup and my previews in Vegas went from hovering around 24fps (for 29.97 footage) on medium quality to unwavering, full-on 29.97 after the RAID was installed and used. I can preview Magic Bulleted footage (24p) on the timeline at around 14fps. Before the RAID, Magic Bullet would slow my previews to a dead crawl of like 6fps. That's real results in my opinion, and worth the extra 100 bux for an additional drive.
greeches
Veteran
HansK
Veteran
Re: New motherboard and processors
[quote author=beenyweenies link=board=Links;num=1105501094;start=15#21 date=01/26/05 at 12:27:20]I have three drives in my system, two in RAID 0 configuration and 1 120MB drive for the OS and programs.
I don't agree, however, that it is overkill to use RAID for media work[/quote]
I will second this. I have a similar setup: two 250gb drives in a RAID 0 setup for A/V and one 160gb for OS/Apps/Docs/Etc.. I also have a Matrox RTX100 which hammers the system doing realtime work. The setup has worked amazingly well for rendering. Even when using Premiere without the RTX I get realtime rendering speeds that sometimes make me question the need for my RTX.
[quote author=beenyweenies link=board=Links;num=1105501094;start=15#21 date=01/26/05 at 12:27:20]I have three drives in my system, two in RAID 0 configuration and 1 120MB drive for the OS and programs.
I don't agree, however, that it is overkill to use RAID for media work[/quote]
I will second this. I have a similar setup: two 250gb drives in a RAID 0 setup for A/V and one 160gb for OS/Apps/Docs/Etc.. I also have a Matrox RTX100 which hammers the system doing realtime work. The setup has worked amazingly well for rendering. Even when using Premiere without the RTX I get realtime rendering speeds that sometimes make me question the need for my RTX.
Soliton
Well-known member
Re: New motherboard and processors
I just want to pop in and say that if I had a lot of time in a project and was on Raid 0, I'd be pretty darn nervous. Even though I've used nothing but WD drives for 12 years without a failure, I would certainly consider backing up to another single drive, DVD RAM or tape.
Backups are way cheaper than the time it takes to recreate lost work.
I just want to pop in and say that if I had a lot of time in a project and was on Raid 0, I'd be pretty darn nervous. Even though I've used nothing but WD drives for 12 years without a failure, I would certainly consider backing up to another single drive, DVD RAM or tape.
Backups are way cheaper than the time it takes to recreate lost work.
Re: New motherboard and processors
[quote author=beenyweenies link=board=Links;num=1105501094;start=15#21 date=01/26/05 at 12:27:20]
I don't agree, however, that it is overkill to use RAID for media work, people use VERY pricey 10,000RPM drives, so why not RAID? Having 2 or more layers of DV footage (24p or otherwise) on the timeline with FX applied, music tracks, transitions etc. and you will need that extra bandwidth without a doubt unless you don't care about real-time previews or render times. If you are only doing wedding video work with a simple A/B setup and no effects, then it may not be needed. Even then, hard drives are so cheap and RAID tools so plentiful (free with virtually all new motherboards) that there is really no reason not to set one up. It does, as you point out, double the chance of drive failure, but then again if you are using good quality drives and backing up your work as you should be, then it is not much more risky than a single drive setup in my opinion.
I did some tests before and after installing my RAID setup and my previews in Vegas went from hovering around 24fps (for 29.97 footage) on medium quality to unwavering, full-on 29.97 after the RAID was installed and used. I can preview Magic Bulleted footage (24p) on the timeline at around 14fps. Before the RAID, Magic Bullet would slow my previews to a dead crawl of like 6fps. That's real results in my opinion, and worth the extra 100 bux for an additional drive.[/quote]
I did say that's overkill for DV, not "media work," which can cover a whole range of things. A RAID might give you a little extra kick, but for me (and I speak for me; it's all about personal comfort), it's not worth the doubled risk of drive failure. I'm not saying you shouldn't do what you do; I'm just offering another perspective.
Now, editing HD is something different, as Rob points out.
[quote author=beenyweenies link=board=Links;num=1105501094;start=15#21 date=01/26/05 at 12:27:20]
I don't agree, however, that it is overkill to use RAID for media work, people use VERY pricey 10,000RPM drives, so why not RAID? Having 2 or more layers of DV footage (24p or otherwise) on the timeline with FX applied, music tracks, transitions etc. and you will need that extra bandwidth without a doubt unless you don't care about real-time previews or render times. If you are only doing wedding video work with a simple A/B setup and no effects, then it may not be needed. Even then, hard drives are so cheap and RAID tools so plentiful (free with virtually all new motherboards) that there is really no reason not to set one up. It does, as you point out, double the chance of drive failure, but then again if you are using good quality drives and backing up your work as you should be, then it is not much more risky than a single drive setup in my opinion.
I did some tests before and after installing my RAID setup and my previews in Vegas went from hovering around 24fps (for 29.97 footage) on medium quality to unwavering, full-on 29.97 after the RAID was installed and used. I can preview Magic Bulleted footage (24p) on the timeline at around 14fps. Before the RAID, Magic Bullet would slow my previews to a dead crawl of like 6fps. That's real results in my opinion, and worth the extra 100 bux for an additional drive.[/quote]
I did say that's overkill for DV, not "media work," which can cover a whole range of things. A RAID might give you a little extra kick, but for me (and I speak for me; it's all about personal comfort), it's not worth the doubled risk of drive failure. I'm not saying you shouldn't do what you do; I'm just offering another perspective.
Now, editing HD is something different, as Rob points out.
BEENYWEENIES
Active member
Re: New motherboard and processors
[quote author=David Jimerson link=board=Links;num=1105501094;start=15#26 date=01/27/05 at 10:31:05]
I did say that's overkill for DV, not "media work," which can cover a whole range of things. A RAID might give you a little extra kick, but for me (and I speak for me; it's all about personal comfort), it's not worth the doubled risk of drive failure. I'm not saying you shouldn't do what you do; I'm just offering another perspective.
Now, editing HD is something different, as Rob points out.[/quote]
I agree that it's all about personal comfort and, of course, needs.
The hard drive typically is the first of many bottlenecks in any application that is streaming data through your system at high rates, be it games or video apps or 3D work. This is why people pay ridiculous prices for 10,000RPM drives, so it should be a top priority for video editors to eliminate such bottlenecks if they are feeling the need to upgrade, as the original poster was asking about. With a RAID setup you should be able to completely eliminate dropped frames during capture, real-time playback issues, and more. even just moving or copying footage to your machine goes twice as fast.
[quote author=David Jimerson link=board=Links;num=1105501094;start=15#26 date=01/27/05 at 10:31:05]
I did say that's overkill for DV, not "media work," which can cover a whole range of things. A RAID might give you a little extra kick, but for me (and I speak for me; it's all about personal comfort), it's not worth the doubled risk of drive failure. I'm not saying you shouldn't do what you do; I'm just offering another perspective.
Now, editing HD is something different, as Rob points out.[/quote]
I agree that it's all about personal comfort and, of course, needs.
The hard drive typically is the first of many bottlenecks in any application that is streaming data through your system at high rates, be it games or video apps or 3D work. This is why people pay ridiculous prices for 10,000RPM drives, so it should be a top priority for video editors to eliminate such bottlenecks if they are feeling the need to upgrade, as the original poster was asking about. With a RAID setup you should be able to completely eliminate dropped frames during capture, real-time playback issues, and more. even just moving or copying footage to your machine goes twice as fast.
Jim Brennan
VHS Member Old Skool
Re: New motherboard and processors
I think I need about a month to sort through all of this. ;D
I really appreciate the tips, especially the differing opinions. That's where the rubber mets the road, as they say.
I think I need about a month to sort through all of this. ;D
I really appreciate the tips, especially the differing opinions. That's where the rubber mets the road, as they say.
Re: New motherboard and processors
Well, it certainly speeds up data transfer – no question. But you should never have dropped frames when capturing to a single drive, assuming it’s 7200 RPM. The throughput is well more than adequate. If you DO have dropped frames, you have issues other than drive speed.
Well, it certainly speeds up data transfer – no question. But you should never have dropped frames when capturing to a single drive, assuming it’s 7200 RPM. The throughput is well more than adequate. If you DO have dropped frames, you have issues other than drive speed.
BEENYWEENIES
Active member
Re: New motherboard and processors
[quote author=David Jimerson link=board=Links;num=1105501094;start=15#29 date=01/27/05 at 13:16:18]Well, it certainly speeds up data transfer – no question. But you should never have dropped frames when capturing to a single drive, assuming it’s 7200 RPM. The throughput is well more than adequate. If you DO have dropped frames, you have issues other than drive speed.[/quote]
That's true. I guess the issue here is whether or not it is worth the investment in money and time to eliminate potential bottlenecks. If your drives are working for your needs, then obviously there's probably no need to upgrade. But on the bandwidth front a 7200RPM drive is, in my experience, just barely enough bandwidth to work with DV footage with little to no room for system overhead, multiple copies on the timeline etc.
I feel more prepared to handle whatever source material I am given to work with, for example if a client has Beta SP footage or even HDV, my system specs can handle it without scrambling to piece together a system that will. But ultimately I decided to go the RAID route simply because drives are so cheap these days, and good quality RAID hardware is built into most newer motherboards, so there was little reason not to do it. I will probably upgrade to a RAID 0+1 setup for security, but again that will only cost me the price of one more 250GB drive, which these days isn't much. Maybe I am going overboard on my system, but hell if I am going to pay as much as I have for all these apps, a great camera etc. then I am going to try to make sure my system offers tip-top performance, especially since it is so cheap to do so.
[quote author=David Jimerson link=board=Links;num=1105501094;start=15#29 date=01/27/05 at 13:16:18]Well, it certainly speeds up data transfer – no question. But you should never have dropped frames when capturing to a single drive, assuming it’s 7200 RPM. The throughput is well more than adequate. If you DO have dropped frames, you have issues other than drive speed.[/quote]
That's true. I guess the issue here is whether or not it is worth the investment in money and time to eliminate potential bottlenecks. If your drives are working for your needs, then obviously there's probably no need to upgrade. But on the bandwidth front a 7200RPM drive is, in my experience, just barely enough bandwidth to work with DV footage with little to no room for system overhead, multiple copies on the timeline etc.
I feel more prepared to handle whatever source material I am given to work with, for example if a client has Beta SP footage or even HDV, my system specs can handle it without scrambling to piece together a system that will. But ultimately I decided to go the RAID route simply because drives are so cheap these days, and good quality RAID hardware is built into most newer motherboards, so there was little reason not to do it. I will probably upgrade to a RAID 0+1 setup for security, but again that will only cost me the price of one more 250GB drive, which these days isn't much. Maybe I am going overboard on my system, but hell if I am going to pay as much as I have for all these apps, a great camera etc. then I am going to try to make sure my system offers tip-top performance, especially since it is so cheap to do so.