LoL it was a chart! But just to set backfocus. Sorry, Dino! So close yet... so... far...
Letus relases 2/3 B4 Relay Lenses
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LoL it was a chart! But just to set backfocus. Sorry, Dino! So close yet... so... far...
astigmatic
Well-known member
vaseline? Wow, I don't see that at all, it looks pretty darn sharp to me.
I also see soft edges on the letus footage, but it's hard to tell if those are soft edges or out of focus areas.. shooting a chart would clear up the confusion
I also see soft edges on the letus footage, but it's hard to tell if those are soft edges or out of focus areas.. shooting a chart would clear up the confusion
Dino
Veteran
I also see soft edges on the letus footage, but it's hard to tell if those are soft edges or out of focus areas.. shooting a chart would clear up the confusion
I didn't pay him to post that! Still waiting to see a chart from the two people who have Letus Relays, still waiting to see a chart from ANY SGBlade owner........sigh.
astigmatic
Well-known member
my sgblade is coming in 2-3 weeks maybe. 10 bucks says I'll be first to get a chart up on these forums.
Well, I said the same thing about Brevis footage being completely soft on one side of the frame... apparently I was the only one who saw that until the flip unit came out and suddenly everyone started seeing it.
Doesn't matter! Some people see certain things and some people just won't.
Some people have the patience for charts, some people just want to shoot.
Doesn't matter! Some people see certain things and some people just won't.
Some people have the patience for charts, some people just want to shoot.
astigmatic
Well-known member
well yeah, it's all subjective until someone does something objective, like shoot a chart. I dont know if other peoples camcorders have this, but mine has a camera snapshot mode. I just take a picture to sd card, then transfer it to my computer.
Also, wasnt that soft edge on the brevis exclusive to the ex1? And if it was, then do not other adapters have the same problem? Because, my brevis is pretty sharp edge to edge on my little camcorder.
Also, wasnt that soft edge on the brevis exclusive to the ex1? And if it was, then do not other adapters have the same problem? Because, my brevis is pretty sharp edge to edge on my little camcorder.
Evangelos Achillopoulos
Well-known member
Sorry Kholi I didn't mean to offend you... but I didn't see the performance that I would expect for such a relay yet, in a 2.2Mpixel camera like 3000 is... I suppose my last post has clear up few things in regard why I needed a very good front lens well adjusted... to me what I see is 1.1Mpixels or worst... To put down 5.5K euros (or more in EU...) for a relay I need to see a lot of stills with match better front glass...
To understand better what I want, look at the right chick of the child, the texture details... this is called MTF or micro contrast... not sharpness... which is exactly what I don't see in the macro shot with a double resolution camera...
If I had the ability to have the lens for testing few days I would know probably things that you know and you couldn't show to me and yes if I got the performance that I have in 2.8 at 1.5 I would buy it in a snap...
Last summer I found a used CLA35 relay for 1000 euros, I bought it... the relay has 12 elements F1.4 with Zaiss Master prime class glass and design... I was hoping to get the 1.5 performance but couldn't get it work acceptable in less than 2.8... and that is Zeiss design for master primes... from that point on, I realized that physics of optics have limitations as life has...
To understand better what I want, look at the right chick of the child, the texture details... this is called MTF or micro contrast... not sharpness... which is exactly what I don't see in the macro shot with a double resolution camera...
If I had the ability to have the lens for testing few days I would know probably things that you know and you couldn't show to me and yes if I got the performance that I have in 2.8 at 1.5 I would buy it in a snap...
Last summer I found a used CLA35 relay for 1000 euros, I bought it... the relay has 12 elements F1.4 with Zaiss Master prime class glass and design... I was hoping to get the 1.5 performance but couldn't get it work acceptable in less than 2.8... and that is Zeiss design for master primes... from that point on, I realized that physics of optics have limitations as life has...
Nope, not an EX1. There's an entire thread on the subject and it was pretty much plain sight on an HVX200, only a few people saw it and it was pretty darn obvious.
IN fact, that still that Evangelos posted has it in the bottom left hand corner... only there's text over it so you can't really see it. But it's there, that kid's jacket is bloomin' with anomalies, and so is part of his throat.
Edit: And sure, other adapters have the same issue... outside of the Letus Elite (w/ahcromat) and Letus Ultimate....
Evangelos -- The closest that I've seen to this current setup is the Pro35. Everything else falls visibly short. That's just my stand. No offense done, I'm not a manufacturer and I have nothing to gain from the debate. Only manufacturers of products stand to gain.
Dino
Veteran
My money is on Lenny or Leo--they're my local favorites!
"It's all subjective until somebody does something objective, like shoot a chart"
That is the best quote of the day!
Kholi you're testing the Pro right? Do you also have a Compact to compare it to? I'd be interested to see the differences....f1.5 to f1.8 does not seem much light loss between the two....
Yes, I'm jumping the gun as usual Thanks for posting all of this info by the way! Learning loads and looking for a point to jump in a buy the right bit of kit for my needs.
Yes, I'm jumping the gun as usual
Thanks for posting all of this info by the way! Learning loads and looking for a point to jump in a buy the right bit of kit for my needs.
Evangelos Achillopoulos
Well-known member
Kholi we are on the same side... I have to compete REDONE with my low res Varicam until I have an EPIC FF35 on hand...
left corner under the letters...
That is the performance of 50mm 1.4 ZF at F2... I can't do anything about it, as I said in other threads... it is THE worst lens for demo... it has crazy CA in all apertures... there is a review that measure that in photozone... a big discussion in REDUSER etc...
The point is... that even on the center, what is posted, it not even close...
As for Pro-35... it it is much less sharp than what I have with Brevis and FiberScreen... my film out test show exactly that... I don't consider Pro-35 as a benchmark in anything except build quality...
left corner under the letters...
That is the performance of 50mm 1.4 ZF at F2... I can't do anything about it, as I said in other threads... it is THE worst lens for demo... it has crazy CA in all apertures... there is a review that measure that in photozone... a big discussion in REDUSER etc...
The point is... that even on the center, what is posted, it not even close...
As for Pro-35... it it is much less sharp than what I have with Brevis and FiberScreen... my film out test show exactly that... I don't consider Pro-35 as a benchmark in anything except build quality...
this is with F2 in Zeiss ZF F1.4 50mm and ND 1.2, with relay at F2.8... On camera detail OFF, FilmREC, corrected in Apple Color, with sharpness 0.06 in Apple Color FX room...
Do you want me to tweak the image in post to match yours? Best to take it for what it is: my preference is a non-saturated, non sharpened acquisition. I do it with my HPX170, I do it with my RED, I do it with my D90.
My own settings can effect what you're talkin' about but I'm pretty sure I could AE grade it to what you're talking about. Once more, it's straight out of camera at a higher resolution. The point is to show edge to edge performance.
When I have a chance to take it outside and do what you're asking I will, but what's important to you isn't important to me. Which is definitely alright! If you have a product that's cheaper than the Letus RElay by all means, sell it!
My experience says that the 1.5 is definitely worth it, along with a few other additions.
Do you want me to tweak the image in post to match yours? Best to take it for what it is: my preference is a non-saturated, non sharpened acquisition. I do it with my HPX170, I do it with my RED, I do it with my D90.
My own settings can effect what you're talkin' about but I'm pretty sure I could AE grade it to what you're talking about. Once more, it's straight out of camera at a higher resolution. The point is to show edge to edge performance.
When I have a chance to take it outside and do what you're asking I will, but what's important to you isn't important to me. Which is definitely alright! If you have a product that's cheaper than the Letus RElay by all means, sell it!
My experience says that the 1.5 is definitely worth it, along with a few other additions.
Dino
Veteran
I should have the first Letus B4 Compact, it is supposed to deliver this month. I would also like to compare it to the Letus B4 Pro and the Cinevate B4 Variable Relay. However, if Joseph, with his big adapter test, wants to take care of it for me.........
Kholi you're testing the Pro right? Do you also have a Compact to compare it to? I'd be interested to see the differences....f1.5 to f1.8 does not seem much light loss between the two....
Yes, I'm jumping the gun as usual
Just the pro, don't have the compact! I wager that 1.5 to 1.8 doesn't seem like a lot more, but also take in consideration the build of the 1.5 to 1.8. That's where a bit of change comes in.
It's like comparin' the Contax Zeiss 1.2 versus the 1.4. The 1.2 doesn't seem like it's THAT much faster, but it's definitely faster and that sucker is SHARP. Hence it's price tag (although inflated due to collector's items status. A reasonably priced one is still high. )
Not only about speed, but build quality, coating, etc. These are important as well.
Evangelos Achillopoulos
Well-known member
I really don't wont to debate Kholi... but it seems that you don't know few basic things for Varicam...
FilmREC is like SLog of F23 or Panalog of Genesis and without gamma correction is rubbish because is like RAW... If I don't apply a log LUT its like a Log film scan... or an OCN (Original Camera Negative uncorrected)... or like REDLog with no LUT... To shoot with detail OFF in a 1.1Mpixel camera is crazy... a 0.06 sharpness in Color is almost nothing... is like detail +15 but with no coring effect... All the EX1/3 shoots that I have see is with +25 detail... it wouldn't be fair to compare a Varicam with detail OFF when all the others are shooting with detail... I just balanced the shoots at Cineon 6500 kelvin... I didn't put a specific look... film is vivid... life is vivid...
Try your 3000 in FilmREC... and try to correct it or use the Gamma 2 in the camera... I can assist you with the 3000 if you want... it can outperform RED easily... (If it just had a 35 size sensor...)
I meant the Apple Color man. Didn't know it came pre-installed in the camera. My bad.
Anyway, it's not healthy to banter back and forth with anyone that has anything invested in making money off of these things. So, that said, please release your relay so that the market has more to choose from and people can test them! Like astigmatic says, it's all subjective! Just like the thought that an HPX3000 can "outperform" a RED ONE...
On to the next episode.
Anyway, it's not healthy to banter back and forth with anyone that has anything invested in making money off of these things. So, that said, please release your relay so that the market has more to choose from and people can test them! Like astigmatic says, it's all subjective! Just like the thought that an HPX3000 can "outperform" a RED ONE...
On to the next episode.
Evangelos Achillopoulos
Well-known member
Damn Kholi, you are a fast writer...
FilmRec is the main feature of Panasonic high end cameras the last 7 years...
For further reading...
Even the old Varicam F is outperforming RED... 3000 is better by 1.2 stops...
Geoff Boyle along with a group of DoPs in an unmarked presentation by Technicolor (if I'm not mistaken) in France same time ago he saw everything film projected (F23, HVX200, RED, SI, HPX3000, Varicam, F900R, Viper) everyone vote for 3000 as the best and second was Varicam...
http://www.motionfx.gr/Files/Latitude Objective Comparison Sep07-Mar08.pdf
As for resolution madness... Film projection resolution by ITU-R....
http://www.motionfx.gr/Files/35mm_resolution_english.pdf
Ahhh and what is FilmREC...
http://www.motionfx.gr/Files/HD Varicam Film Rec.pdf
I don't want to sound dogmatic... but only DoF is missing from Varicam/3000 to outperform the rest... my bet is on Monstro and EPIC FF35 unless something else grab my attention... like a 35 sensor Varicam...
Good night and good reading...
Dennis Wood
DVXuser Sponsor
I agree...plenty of life (and performance) in 2/3" platforms now, and in the next few years. Otherwise we wouldn't have invested so heavily in our own 2/3" multi-format solution. You'll have to wait a bit for footage though :-(
Evangelos Achillopoulos
Well-known member
Kholi... about the "Vaseline look"... this is a shot from a spec ad... I have used the usual FiberScreen and the GG.relay rev2 Varicam etc... the lens is top notch Leica-R glass... as you see the difference between Leica R 60 macro and Zeiss 50 1.4 in bokeh is huge...
The test is www.motionfx.gr/Bokeh_test2.htm
The test is www.motionfx.gr/Bokeh_test2.htm
Not bad... but still looks weird to me man. It's seriously like this "extra glass" look going on. Like wearing two sets of eyeglasses if that makes sense and this isn't the first time I've seen it.
Dunno where it's coming from, but I don't get it in my footage as far as the Ultimate is concerned and have yet to see it in conjunction with the Relay + Ultimate. Not even using my Zeiss Contax lenses.
Here: http://www.vimeo.com/1093520
That was shot with the 200A, Ultimate and Zeiss ZF lenses. The 50/1.4's mixed in with the footage. I just don't see the extra glass effect that's common when using some of the other adapters available. That's just my stand! Debating over it is pointless, and I'm not trying to really make a point. Just show what I'm seeing and that's it...
If nobody else sees it, oh well! I try to move beyond the debate and comparisons because I've got plenty to do great with, if I'm gonna spend my time talking about gear I want it to be a positive waste of time, not a negative. Although the term "waste" is a negative term, anyway. I suppose that's an oxymoronic ideal.
Dunno where it's coming from, but I don't get it in my footage as far as the Ultimate is concerned and have yet to see it in conjunction with the Relay + Ultimate. Not even using my Zeiss Contax lenses.
Here: http://www.vimeo.com/1093520
That was shot with the 200A, Ultimate and Zeiss ZF lenses. The 50/1.4's mixed in with the footage. I just don't see the extra glass effect that's common when using some of the other adapters available. That's just my stand! Debating over it is pointless, and I'm not trying to really make a point. Just show what I'm seeing and that's it...
If nobody else sees it, oh well! I try to move beyond the debate and comparisons because I've got plenty to do great with, if I'm gonna spend my time talking about gear I want it to be a positive waste of time, not a negative. Although the term "waste" is a negative term, anyway. I suppose that's an oxymoronic ideal.