Capturing & mixing 24p and 24pA in FCP sequences

2

2001

New member
I have footage in both 24p and 24pA shot with my DVX 100b and am wondering about a workflow for editing it on a single sequence in FCP 6. The majority of this project is being shot and will be finished in 24p normal (29.97), but I do have some early footage in 24pA that I need to use. I understand that FCP 6 new supports multiple video formats on a sequence, so I'm wondering if it extends to using both normal and advanced. Also, I'm wondering about the setup for capturing the 24pA footage.

Based on all I've read on 24p and A video and the workflows for both, it seems that I would capture the 24pA footage without removing the advanced pulldown, so that it's still at 29.97. Then I would edit the advanced footage on a 29.97 sequence along with the 24p. Is that right?

I'd appreciate any corrections, further workflow details, and any experience any readers have to share.

Many thanks.
 
You are exactly correct in your second paragraph.

However, if you are ambitious... Here's what I'd do:

Load all the 24p material into Cinema Tools and reverse telecine it. That will get it to 24 progressive frames per second. Capture all your 24pA material with advanced pulldown removed -- gettting 24 progressive fps.

Edit in a 23.98 sequence. This way you won't have to mess with cadences being all wacked out as you edit. Then, if you want to get it back to 29.97 just dump it back to tape with the RT settings for 3:2 playback to tape.

Your final project will look stunning.

Good luck,

CaptM
 
as far as presets for capturing 24pa, there's a setting for "NTSC 24p (2:3:3:2)"
I've never had to mix formats with our projects. I could tell you how I think I would do this but I'd run the risk of being completely wrong :)
 
CaptainMench said:
You are exactly correct in your second paragraph.

However, if you are ambitious... Here's what I'd do:

Load all the 24p material into Cinema Tools and reverse telecine it. That will get it to 24 progressive frames per second. Capture all your 24pA material with advanced pulldown removed -- gettting 24 progressive fps.

Edit in a 23.98 sequence. This way you won't have to mess with cadences being all wacked out as you edit. Then, if you want to get it back to 29.97 just dump it back to tape with the RT settings for 3:2 playback to tape.

Your final project will look stunning.

Good luck,

CaptM
Click to expand...


and that's why I didn't tell you :)
 
Mixing 24p and 24pA

Mixing 24p and 24pA

Thanks for the helpful replies CaptM and Matt.

A couple further questions:
Let's say I hold off on go through Cinema Tools to convert the 29.97 footage to 23.98 and then work on a 23.98 sequence. (Interestingly, that suggests that I shoot the rest of the footage in 24pA to avoid that step.)

CaptM suggests that mixing the normal and advanced on a 29.97 timeline should work. What preset for capturing would I use for the 24pA? Matt suggests using a preset for 24p NTSC 24p (2:3:3:2), but I don't see it if that's what I would use. I would think I'd use the same DV NTSC 48khz as I would use for the Normal, in order to capture all 30 the flagged frames.

Finally, would anything wacky happen on the 29.97 sequence by using both normal and advanced on it? Is there a special change I should make for that, such as the field dominance which is normally set to lower (even)?

Has anyone had experience with this? I suppose I could try the Nattress filter on the footage to change it from A to normal, if necessary, But I thought that FCP would be able to handle the two kinds of footage.

I wanted to hear what dvxusers thought about this, or experiences, before I started capturing so thanks again.
 
2001 said:
Let's say I hold off on go through Cinema Tools to convert the 29.97 footage to 23.98 and then work on a 23.98 sequence. (Interestingly, that suggests that I shoot the rest of the footage in 24pA to avoid that step.)
Click to expand...

EXACTLY!!! I gave up on 24p mode. Only useful if you DON'T EDIT it. (bold statement, but true (small t))

2001 said:
CaptM suggests that mixing the normal and advanced on a 29.97 timeline should work.
Click to expand...

Yes the answer is still YES.

2001 said:
Finally, would anything wacky happen on the 29.97 sequence by using both normal and advanced on it? Is there a special change I should make for that, such as the field dominance which is normally set to lower (even)?

Has anyone had experience with this?
Click to expand...

No -- 29.97 is 29.97 normal (3:2) cadence or advanced (2:3:3:2) -- only thing is that the cadences won't match and might look wonky to your viewers. 2:3:3:2 isn't meant to be played in 29.97 as a telecined cadence.

Experience? Not in 6... here's the rub... I don't know if you add 23.98 (24pA with cadence removed) will be 3:2 in a 29.97 sequence (matching your 24p mode stuff) or if it will be jacked every which way.

Have you TRIED??

CaptM
 
CaptainMench said:
EXACTLY!!! I gave up on 24p mode. Only useful if you DON'T EDIT it. (bold statement, but true (small t))



Yes the answer is still YES.



No -- 29.97 is 29.97 normal (3:2) cadence or advanced (2:3:3:2) -- only thing is that the cadences won't match and might look wonky to your viewers. 2:3:3:2 isn't meant to be played in 29.97 as a telecined cadence.

Experience? Not in 6... here's the rub... I don't know if you add 23.98 (24pA with cadence removed) will be 3:2 in a 29.97 sequence (matching your 24p mode stuff) or if it will be jacked every which way.

Have you TRIED??

CaptM
Click to expand...

Right CaptM -- you didn't "suggest" it would work but did you agree that I should capture the Advanced stuff so all the flagged frames would be there to fit the timing on the 29.97 sequence. Right? I assumed that meant that it would work to mix them. Would that be the same capture setting as the normal dv?

You raise a good question about how the advanced (2:3:3:2) will look in a 3:2 timeline. Do you mean it might look weird even if the flagged frames are not removed when captured? I will try experimenting, but I wanted to get the insight and experience of some users going into it.
 
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Try batch capturing all your 3:2 footage with that cadence removed. Then change your capture settings and capture your 2:3:3:2 stuff. Once the cadences are removed, edit in a 23.98 timeline.
 
Matt T said:
Try batch capturing all your 3:2 footage with that cadence removed. Then change your capture settings and capture your 2:3:3:2 stuff. Once the cadences are removed, edit in a 23.98 timeline.
Click to expand...


Hmm. That's sounds similar to what CaptM mentioned up top, making it all 23.98 footage and editing it on a 23.98 timeline. Possibly a useful shortcut.

What would the capture setting be for capturing the 3:2 (normal) with the cadence removed? Maybe I'm missing something, but is that possible, since the fields from two separate frames are mixed in the 3:2? I might be wrong, but I thought the whole point of Advanced (2:3:3:2) was so that some frames could be removed.
 
NO NO NO!!!

Matt's confused!!!

Don't listen to him right now. You cannot (CANNOT) capture your 3:2 footage AND remove the cadence. REMEMBER - cadence is ADDED pre-tape. If you don't want the cadence you have to remove it, but you cannot remove 3:2 (24p mode) on capture. You need Cinema Tools.

Here's the deal about editing --

Say you shot a TV show on film... Cheers, LOST, 24... etc (I know, some shows are all digital -- I have no idea which, but for this argument stay with me)

You digitize the film and edit scanned footage at 24fps.

Now that you are done, the ONLY way to broadcast this on American TV is to TELECINE it to 30 fps... what the TV shows. SO... you to a little bit of magic so you combine certain fields to make 'extra' frames. In this case, when you are done you will have

PPPCC PPPCC PPPCC PPPCC etc. just like 24p mode footage. P=progressive C=combined/interlaced.

The cadence is very nice and your eye enjoys the experience, in fact - it has a "FILM LOOK"!

Now, 24pA mode is easy for FCP to remove the cadence, but looks like yuk when watching it WITH the cadence... you get:

PPPPC PPPPC PPPPC PPPPC PPPPC etc.

NOW~!!! Here's the problem with editing ANY of this in 29.97... you cut where you need to and not where the cadence is so you might end up with:

PPCPPPPPPPPCCCCPPCCPCCCPPPPPCPPPPCPCCPPPPCCPPP

What kind of cadence is THAT???

So...

CaptM

CaptM
 
That's a very good point, CaptM. On the same 29.97 timeline, 24p and 24pA (without pulldown removed) may "play back", but the cutting and mixing may look lousy. If I use Cinema Tools to reverse telecine the 24p stuff and also remove the pulldown on the Advanced stuff, would I edit an actual 24p timeline or a 23.98 timeline? (In other words, are the reverse telecine and removed pulldown processes both giving me 24fps or 23.98?). I'm thinking that it would be 23.98 to be able to output 23.98 fps video as 29.97 fps video. Also, how does Reverse Telecine adjust the audio speed so that the audio and video remain in sync after the frame rate is changed?

Also, if I need to edit on a 29.97 timeline, I'm wondering if anyone has experience using the Nattress filter to convert 24pA video to 24p?

Thanks.
 
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Spot on with your assessments in paragraph one.

Nattress filter really only works on 60i material. Not sure what you really mean here. I assume you use 24p in this sense as 24fps. You cannot go directly from 24pA mode to 24p mode.

CaptM
 
Great. So if I reverse telecine the 24p, then I would edit it along with the advanced on a 23.98 (24fps) timeline. Would the audio stay in sync on the reverse telecined footage?

The other route is to use the Nattress G pulldown converter which will take 24pA footage that has not had it's pulldown removed and convert it to 24pNormal. I havent used it and was wondering if anyone did.
 
AH... I've never seen that Nattress plug. Sorry, didn't understand what you were talking about. NOW I see (read the page) -- yes. It will work. Graeme doesn't put stuff out that doesn't work. But even he says the best way to work with that footage is to go 23.98 with it. And NO... it does NOT affect the audio at all.

CaptM
 
CaptM
yeah I guess I am a little confused. I though the whole point of capturing 24P into a 23.98 timeline was so you could remove the 2:3 pulldown. Where am I going wrong?
 
No -- you ALWAYS want to capture 24p mode material at 29.97. End of story. If you tried to capture it at 24fps you will mess it up big time.

Shooting 24p mode is for making a FILM LOOK TYPE video it was NOT intended to be edited in 23.98. NOW... you CAN remove the pulldown and THEN edit it in 23.98, but you'll need to capture first at 29.97 and then use Cinema Tools to remove the cadence.

CaptM
 
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