Letus relases 2/3 B4 Relay Lenses

The workflow is a major headache. I was shooting some greenscreen stuff for a music video using the HVX and a buddy of mine wanted me to use his Red so he could have some samples for his rental page. We ended up using both as the bands time was limited. The Red footage was great once it was processed, bu there were so many more steps to get it to where it needed to be. My dream cam is a Red type cam shooting fullframe 2K. 4k is more of a hasle than its worth half the time.
 
That's exactly it. And, most people don't understand this because they either have NEVER used the camera or have seen the project through post. I mean it's fine once you get "used" to the process but by no means easy.

I can be satisfied with a Pro Res "master" from RED origin, going through FCP conversions but at the end of the day, if you're going to do that, then you're sometimes better off using a 2/3" Camera to begin with. Less storage requirements and so many more small details go along with that.

It's not as clear cut as 4k vs 1080P, RED vs 35mm Adapter. Being offered an adapter and relay system that demands little light loss and returns razor sharp imagery on par with a stock lens is a good thing. Even if you're only renting it from someone else.
 
I'm with Dino and Kholi. Especially for those of us already invested in an adapter and using or owning 2/3" cameras daily, this is a $3500 or max $6K investment that adds a huge new look to your shooting. Especially with Nikon lenses it offers alot at a still low price point. Of course they would have made it cheaper if they could, maybe they would have gotten it out a year earlier if it was simple also.

Bring on the Cinevate and Achillles competition though.

Lenny Levy
 
So, what are the benefits of using this relay lens over using the camera's 'stock' removeable lens?

I mean, do you get less light loss and how much... just the difference from the camera's max aperture to f1.5?
 
35mm Field of View as opposed to something closer to 16mm
Ability to own a Lens Kit over one expensive digital zoom lens
Image Characteristics such as softness, etc etc.
 
Let me explain

Let me explain

Ok Guys, let me explain what this is really for and how it is actually very affordable.
There are different marketplaces for each class of filmmaking equipment.
To make these cameras produce shallow DOF like 35mm (including DOF adapter, Memory cards, glass, accessories, MB, FF, filters, access, monitor, cases, the whole kit and caboodle):

HVX200/EX3 class $15-25K with DOF adpt, as listed above
ENG HPX500/ Sony350 class $19 – 33K with DOF adpt, as listed above
Varicam/F900 $70-$110K with glass and access as listed above
RED $70 - $125K with glass and access as listed above

Can you do these cheaper, yes, but these are estimates for new gear. And remember that there is an ass for every saddle. Each of these have their pluses and minuses depending on weight, usability, handheld, etc.
And the RED or Scarlet is not really a solution for everyone. It’s actually a solution for more of a select few. The workflow of those formats is rather complicated and cumbersome for some and the resolution is not necessary for many applications.
That being said, I’d use one, but I’d use any camera. I’m not married to any piece of gear and I’ve used them all and my DP can make any of them look good. So to me it’s a choice based on the job.


About a year ago I went to Hien and told about an idea I had to make a B4 adapter, he doesn’t remember it that way, but that’s not the point.
Anyways here was what I was thinking.
I never envisioned this to be used with the EX3/HVX200 class of cameras.
What I was thinking is this: the HPX500 or Sony 350. Really they only had one option for shallow DOF and that was the PS Techniks which is really a $25,000 option without lenses.
Personally, I much prefer working with the ENG style class of camera, you have better audio control and inputs, multiple monitor outputs which is nice, you can give the hair/makeup an NTSC screen, producer a component HD and you watch an HD-SDI (all at the same time)
They have a larger chips which is nice. More control over color, gamma, etc.
But these 2/3” cameras never sold very well in the filmmaking space of the marketplace because the glass was very expensive and made them unaffordable.
The HPX500 with a great ENG HD lens is a $34 setup, a lot of buck and not of much interest to indie filmmakers.
But if you go with the HPX500, with the letus Elite, small B4 relay mount, set of 4 Zeiss ZF primes, you’ve spent about $19K and I think for what you get that’s pretty reasonable for the money
Both the B4 relay & Letus Elite along with a set of 4 Zeiss ZF primes comes out to $9500 compare that to the cheapest ENG Real HD lens which is about $15K, not the crappy ones that come with the camera. Still less than the cost of one HD lens.
The ENG camera class is much more durable then the HVX200/EX3 class of camera. Plus they are much better balanced and easier to shoot with (mainly because you have a real viewfinder). And all of the Zacuto support gear is cheaper on the ENG class of camera.

Lastly, to comment on the cost of a RED or scarlet. Check out this month’s SOC story about James Mathers who’s RED setup cost $100K.
When you get all of the parts to create a RED or a Scarlet they are a lot more expensive then the 17K advertised. Now I’m not against them but I think we need to be realistic on what kind of jobs it’s best for and what kind an HVX200 is right for and what kind the HPX500 is right for.
I’m not producing content that will end up on the big screen so I don’t need anything bigger then 1080. So I would probably opt for the B4 style camera with a B4 relay, Letus Elite & Zeiss ZF primes. For my work it gives me the most control.
What you all need to decide is are you really going to be on the big screen, TV screen or web screen. That plus a host of other issues like portability, ease of use, workflow should be in your equation when you make a choice. Renting is also an option and in the long run I’d bet much cheaper when you look at gear turnover.

Here is how we configure this class of camera:
p210300528-4.jpg
 
3500.00 for a 1.8 relay lens. Coming from someone who can't benefit from the huge economies of scale that big manufacturers get, I'm surprised it isn't more. All told, you have a pretty sweet deal that comes in less than half the price of a PS.

As an owner of both an adaptor set up and a RED, I agree with the sentiments above. You want a simple client friendly workflow for small screen adaptors fill that need. When I shoot RED, you have to budget turnaround for transcoding/correction. Granted once you've done a few times it's not as big a deal but it's time and labor nonetheless. Red screwed up by not offering a 2k full frame option that would go directly out to a user friendly codec... but that's another story.

Bravo, Hien. I just hope you don't have to eat baked beans and toast to re-coup your R&D.

Another way to look at it. This is a piece of glass for 3500.00. One PL prime cost double than that. This is cleary aimed at a pro-market where your zooms start at 20G and up. As Zacuto said, 9500.00 for the set up with 4 ZF's. Throw in something for the wide angles and your off.
 
Exactly Tim you get where I'm coming from. And where are you get PL lenses for 7K, I'm in all day on that, let me know? I'm paying almost double for used.
best, Steve
 
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Charles Lowthian said:
So, what are the benefits of using this relay lens over using the camera's 'stock' removeable lens?

I mean, do you get less light loss and how much... just the difference from the camera's max aperture to f1.5?
Click to expand...

The much smaller length vs. attaching a 35mm DOF adapter to an ENG zoom lens is important, the B4 Compact Relay lens is 68mm vs. 204mm for an ENG zoom. A zoom lens is typically going to be a compromise, there are many lens elements in line that are just for focusing at different focal lengths--they don't help light transmission or edge to edge sharpness or MTF or contrast.

Typically ENG zoom lenses, including HD versions are slower near the end of the reach, which is where you'd be with a 35mm DOF adapter mounted on the end of it. So, if an HD ENG zoom lens is rated at F1.7, this will drop off to around F2.4 for the last 25% or so of the focal length. This would not happen with a prime B4 Relay lens that is rated at F1.8.

Lastly, the prime B4 Relay lens is optimized for a specific type/brand of 35mm DOF adapter, which should ensure very good edge to edge focus and little to no chromatic aberration.

I will be renting my Ultimate/Compact B4 Relay lens for $250/day and with a set of Nikon or Canon SLR primes, this would be a much more affordable option than a Pro35/Zeiss Super Speed prime lens set at $600-$700/day. My set of 8 Nikon manual primes with Zacuto gears rents for $100, so that's adapter/relay/prime lens set for only $350/day. A typical HD ENG zoom lens rents for $250-300/day.

A 2/3" ENG style camera w/Relay lens/35mm adapter, prime SLR lens is a great way to do hand held--superior to a palmcorder/adapter even with rods/counterweight system and superior to a RED ONE in handheld trim, no matter how they are accessorized.
 
Kholi said:
35mm Field of View as opposed to something closer to 16mm
Ability to own a Lens Kit over one expensive digital zoom lens
Image Characteristics such as softness, etc etc.
Click to expand...

I was asking more about the benefits of the letus relay lens vs camera stock (removable) lens when used with 35mm adapter.

But thanks for the 35mm adapter summary Kholi :beer:

So Dino, in a nutshell the advantages are the shorter physical length (ignoring the addition of adapter plus slr etc hehe), and less glass 'bulk' (that goes unused with adapter - zoom range) than using stock zoom lens.

I've never used an EX1/3 but think someone wrote somewhere it maintained a F1.8 (or something fast) throughout the zoom range. Which would be great, hence wondering if you actually get less light loss with the letus relay being around that aperture give or take a 1/2 or 1/3 stop difference...

So in short, this letus b4 relay lens is a fixed focal length lens (prime) that is close enough to crop the focussing screen of adapter, or is it still a zoom?
And can you use it without an adapter or does it have an achromat or like that only focusses on the adapter focussing screen (very short range)?
 
Charles Lowthian said:
So Dino, in a nutshell the advantages are the shorter physical length (ignoring the addition of adapter plus slr etc hehe), and less glass 'bulk' (that goes unused with adapter - zoom range) than using stock zoom lens.
Click to expand...

Correct. We're talking about using 35mm DOF adapters on a 2/3" camera, so the adapter and taking lens are present regardless, therefore your option is to mount it on the end of an ENG zoom lens or the much shorter Relay lens, a much more practical form factor with better quality.

I've never used an EX1/3 but think someone wrote somewhere it maintained a F1.8 (or something fast) throughout the zoom range. Which would be great, hence wondering if you actually get less light loss with the letus relay being around that aperture give or take a 1/2 or 1/3 stop difference...
Click to expand...
EX1/3 has no place in a B4 Relay lens discussion, but Letus is coming out with a 1/2" Relay lens for the EX3. The Fujinon lens on the EX1/3 is rated at F1.9, but will lose 2/3 stop zoomed in. It is NOT going to be F1.9 throughout the zoom range.

So in short, this letus b4 relay lens is a fixed focal length lens (prime) that is close enough to crop the focussing screen of adapter, or is it still a zoom?
And can you use it without an adapter or does it have an achromat or like that only focusses on the adapter focussing screen (very short range)?
Click to expand...
It is a prime, not a zoom, cropped for Academy framing. This is a relay lens that requires a 35mm adapter and is setup for short range focusing, it cannot be used to mount a taking lens directly to it. Its only job is to allow a DOF adapter to be used with a 2/3" camera, bypassing the ENG zoom lens.
 
Dino said:
The Fujinon lens on the EX1/3 is rated at F1.9, but will lose 2/3 stop zoomed in. It is NOT going to be F1.9 throughout the zoom range.
Click to expand...

Don't know where I read of the max aperture holding throughout zoom range, or which camera this was for, thought it was the Ex3. Maybe the claim was false or it was for another camera...anyone?

Dino said:
Its only job is to allow a DOF adapter to be used with a 2/3" camera, bypassing the ENG zoom lens.
Click to expand...

And the B4 part I missed. Haven't looked into what the EX3 mount is, so thanks for putting stuff in perspective.
 
All I read here is not stoping me from buying a RED. For run and gun I still have my HVX200.
For High Class work I bought the HPX500 a year ago and I was hoping for a decent relay lens to come along. But 6000$ is way out of what I'm ready to pay apart from the needed adapter. Plus I haven't seen any adapter footage so far that was not soft at the edges. None. On this topic, until now, only PS can deliver. Period.
That will not change with the Letus relay lens, because it's only as good as the adapter in front of it. And there is none by now that delivers as good as a direct lens to sensor solution like the RED does.
I am not a RED fanboy. I just spent so much money on cameras and adapters over the last few years, and none of them really hit the nail. I'm "just" looking for the perfect picture. And from the tests I ran here in Switzerland with a friend of mine who owns two RED's it seams to me the best bang for the buck.
I know about the workflow that comes after the shooting, and it's no problem with me, coming from 16mm in the first place. My editing suite is pretty up to the task.

I hope the Letus relay lens does deliver. But for me its just not the right way anymore going through lens one through lens two through lens three and then to the camera-sensor.
I want one lens in front of the sensor with no light-loss and that's it.

But that's me and no one must agree.

Peter
 
in all fairness it'll probably be compatible but not as easily as a letus adapter. Afterall it is manufactured by such.

I'm working on footage right now but something worthwhile. Asap.

Oh and sorry Charles I mistook your question.
 
Tomas Riuka said:
Let's wait for footage and compatibility with other adapers, like blade...
Click to expand...

Im pretty sure since the optics are so precise, it wont work.
Because different manufacturer has their own setup, its not 100% universal, for instance, the FlipModule for the Blade doesnt work on on RNG35 or Redrock...

Its not like Legos where you connect them, there is ALOT of R&D that goes into designing quality optics.
 
Evangelos Achillopoulos said:
So its only academy format... which is 21.8mm x 12.3mm... not even a Super 35 which is 24mm x 13.5mm, no word for full frame 35 36mm x 24mm...

Hmm... it does have a crop factor... and its a BIG one....

They don't guaranty the performance with other adapters ?!...

Any footage? to check out performance?
Click to expand...

Does your relay offer Super 35 performance with that fast of a lens and minimal light loss?


Tomas Riuka said:
I guess then we still have to wait for Cinevate relay lens, and see where we stand then..
Click to expand...

Indeed I'm interested to see what Cinevate has to offer. Hopefully it will be a great solution for everyone that's price conscious like me!
 
done a little blog on it (very fanboyesque i know but everyone knows I love the Letus products)

http://philipbloom.co.uk/2009/01/28/the-letus-relays-are-almost-upon-us-2/

everything has been said really. But I hope to get my hands on the prototypes very soon to do some full on testing!! Don't get my wrong if they are rubbish I will say so. This is a lot of cash but I am confident Hien can and will deliver. This is a pro product for a pro market. It looks like Letus mean business with this!

What will be interesting is whether I can get them to work with the Brevis and the SgPro Blade and maybe even the G35. Maybe if someone has a pro35 and wants to take part in a comparison test let me know...
 
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