Uncompressed HD in CS4? (editing, not capturing)

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xzuberflutz

New member
Hi,

I'm about to embark on a workflow that I've never tried before and was hoping I might be able to benefit from some of the board members' expertise. Here's my situation:

I shot my current film on Super 16mm and am planning to do a telecine transfer of my rushes to HDCAM in the next few days. I'm then going to get the lab to digitize the HDCAM tape for me, so that I can edit in Premiere CS4. I will be using the same files for effects work in After Effects CS4. I'll be working at a 23.976fps frame rate.

My question is: What format does the lab need to digitize to in order for Premiere to be able to work with the files? Can CS4 handle Uncompressed HD files without any special hardware or plugins? (I heard you need a Blackmagic card or Aspect HD to capture Uncompressed HD, but I'll be bypassing that step since the lab will be doing that for me). If it can't, what would be the best codec to use that would result in the least amount of resolution/color space loss?

To complicate matters, the lab is only able to capture into Final Cut Pro, so the resulting files will be *.mov quicktimes. Will that pose any problem for Premiere on a PC?

Finally, I know I could edit using offline files, but I don't want to since I don't have the budget to rent an HDCAM deck, or to pay for the lab to do another recapture. I also want top quality files from the get-go for the After FX work.

Here are my machine's specs:

Desktop PC running Windows XP 32-bit
Intel Dual-Core 2.33Ghz Processor w/3gigs of DDR2 800mhz RAM
1TB external eSATA drive for raw footage
nVidia GForce 7300GT with 256mb DDR2

Thanks so much for any help you can give. HD gives me a headache!
Dave
 
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I doubt that system will do you for uncompressed.

QuickTime is tricky in Windows; depending on the codec, you may not be able to use them at all. What are they going to give you?
 
That's my question - if CS4 is capable of working in Uncompressed HD, there wouldn't be a codec involved. If not, they can use a codec of my choosing (DVCPRO HD, Prores, etc).

If my system can't handle Uncompressed, what would I need to upgrade to? Or, what codec would be ideal for my situation?
 
Yes, CS3/4 and Aftereffects can handle uncompressed fine - speed depends on your Raid and the storage format.

You can use uncompressed AVI, TIFF or TGA sequence.

You can use DVCPRO or the free AVID HD Codec. But it will not be uncmpressed.
Also HDCAM is a pretty high compressed fromat I would not start with.

Here is your best bet:
You can download the Black Magic "standalone" uncompressed codec for free.
You don´t need a Black Magic card to edit it (not realtime).
Tell the telecine guys to deliver in that format.

IF your system is to slow for uncompressed HD, Cineform is the best you can get.


Frank
 
xzuberflutz said:
That's my question - if CS4 is capable of working in Uncompressed HD, there wouldn't be a codec involved. If not, they can use a codec of my choosing (DVCPRO HD, Prores, etc).
Click to expand...

CS4 is capable of it; I'm just not sure that your hardware is.

But if they use a codec, that's the problem -- most Windows software won't be able to play a Quicktime DVCPRO HD file; you'll need to purchase Raylight Decoder in order to do it. Supposedly you can work with ProRes 422 with the latest Quicktime installs, but I've never gotten it to work (though I haven't tried very hard). You won't be able to use AIC at all.


If my system can't handle Uncompressed, what would I need to upgrade to? Or, what codec would be ideal for my situation?
Click to expand...
You can try, as Postmaster says, to convert and uncompressed file to an intermediate codec.

As for hardware, bigger, faster, more. Quad-core; lots of RAM; striped RAIDs.
 
Also HDCAM is a pretty high compressed format I would not start with.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, the lab can't transfer my footage directly to a hard drive - they have to pass through a tape-based intermediary, which would be either HDCAM or DVCPRO HD at the price I am able to pay. I chose HDCAM because it uses less compression. Is that a mistake?

Also, does that mean that I wouldn't be working with uncompressed HD regardless seeing as how the footage is passing through a tape format? If that's the case, is there a free HDCAM codec I can use, or should I recompress to the Avid or DVCPRO codecs? Which of the two is "better" (or what are the differences between the two?)

I looked into the Blackmagic codec, which looks like a great option, but unfortunately it seems it's only free (or even available) to registered Blackmagic card owners. You need a serial # to download.

Thanks for the helpful replies,
Dave.
 
DVCPro HD would be the better codec. It is far from beeing uncompressed, but at least 4:2:2 compared to HDCam that is 3:1:1.

Good thing: You can use DVCPro HD in CS3/4 without the need of any extra hardware or codec.

Once it is compressed in a lossy codec like HDCam or DVCPro HD you can not go back to uncompressed cause many of the original information is compressed away.

But you can capture in a uncompressed (or virtually uncompressed - like Cineform) codec to minimize further loss and enhanse color grading somewhat.

If they deliver in DVCPro HD I would use it for editing instead of recompressing in to an other lossy codec - and loose more information.

You don´t need a serial number, let all the fields blank and press "download now"
Here is the download link for the Black Magic codec: http://www.blackmagic-design.com/downloads/software/DeckLink_Windows_6.8.7.zip

Frank
 
Postmaster said:
Good thing: You can use DVCPro HD in CS3/4 without the need of any extra hardware or codec.
Click to expand...

In Windows, you can use DVCPRO HD if it's in P2 format, but not if it's in Apple Quicktime format. You need Raylight Decoder for that. Otherwise, you'll get an "unsupported file" error.

Now, supposedly, PP 4.0.1 has FCP project support, but I still haven't been able to open any DVCPRO HD Quicktimes with it, whether material converted by FCP for use in FCP, or from exporting from FCP.
 
I've had success with getting ProRes into Sony Vegas, and I've done fine playing the files on my PC in quicktime. So that's an option.

Like others have said, I wouldn't degrade the image going to HDCam to start with. Try to do something else.

The blackmagic codec can be had. I have it. In 8-bit, it's essentially the same as the AJA codec. Which is downloadable here:

http://www.aja.com/html/support_konaLSe_swd.html


Best.
 
I´m not sure if I missed something but,

they can deliver DVCPro on tape, and on tape only right?
So how do you plan to capture the material?

To play the tape you need a DVCPro HD deck or camera.
Then you can go via firewire and record in OnLocation or Premiere, wich will give you a file that you can play and edit witouit extra codecs or hardware on any half decent computer.

Frank
 
Thanks for all the help, everyone. I spoke to the lab, and they will give me sample clips I can use to test out my system's capabilites before doing the actual transfer.

they can deliver DVCPro on tape, and on tape only right?
So how do you plan to capture the material?
Click to expand...

They will be doing the capture at the lab - my issue was more about what format to originate on, and what codec I would need to transcode the footage to during capture so as to be able to edit on my system.

I'll find out in the next few days what will actually work.

Thanks again for helping me sift through the HD jungle!
Dave.
 
xzuberflutz said:
Thanks for all the help, everyone. I spoke to the lab, and they will give me sample clips I can use to test out my system's capabilites before doing the actual transfer.



They will be doing the capture at the lab - my issue was more about what format to originate on, and what codec I would need to transcode the footage to during capture so as to be able to edit on my system.

I'll find out in the next few days what will actually work.

Thanks again for helping me sift through the HD jungle!
Dave.
Click to expand...
I am new to this so please excuse any mistakes of protocol.

I have exactly the same problem - except my HD telecine has already been dubbed off to HDCam.

I would like to edit in CS4 (I am in the process of deciding what computer specs I need), hopefully without any further compression. The lab can provide an uncompressed quicktime file. Would I be able to work with this, or convert it in CS4 to something more suitable e.g. Cineform ?
They can also render to various formats out of Avid or FCP.

I will only be working on one hour of HD material. It has come off the A&B rolls of a 16mm documentary which I want to reconform and title.

Thanks for any advice.

p.s. the lab will also be able to give me some test files of my choosing
 
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Hey James,

Here's what I ended up doing:

-The lab did a tech-light telecine transfer to HDCAM tape.
-They then captured the footage onto a hard drive I gave them using FCP using the Uncompressed 4:2:2 option (this won't give you any extra colour information, but is the only option for uncompressed).
-I then took those enormous files and imported them into Premiere CS4. (They imported fine, but were to big to play for more than 2 seconds at a time, which was expected). And finally I output them to P2 MXF files at the same resolution, which are still high quality, but much more workable.
-Once I'm done editing, I plan to reference the original uncompressed files for colour timing and mastering, that way I have the best possible quality without having to go back to the lab.
-These files all work in After Effects as well, so that I can apply my effects to the highest quality versions, using the lower res ones as proxies.

To be safe, get a test file in Uncompressed 4:2:2 and one in P2 MXF and see how they run on your machine.

As a note, if your computer isn't powerful enough to handle the P2 MXF files, you can always make DV versions and work with those until you're ready for timing and mastering. Just make sure your frame rates match up with the source files.
And also keep in mind that your hour of footage will take up about 300-350 gigs of space. Depending on the lab, they may not be able to transfer directly to your hard drive either. They will likely capture to their own drive, and then copy to your hard drive. Be careful because unless you have a deal with them, they will charge you by the hour for this, and transfering 350gigs of footage takes a lot of hours! Make sure you negotiate a flat rate for this, because things can go wrong too, making it take even longer than normal.

Anyway, hope this helps and let me know if you have any other questions.
David.
 
Hello David
Great to find someone with EXACTLY the same problem as myself, and has also gone through the hoops of fixing it .. and is helpful .. like striking gold ! This is actually my very first post in a web forum.

I will be following your route. Just one question,
"get a test file in Uncompressed 4:2:2" ; which file format will that be, a Quicktime .mov ? Did you specify what you wanted as the file format ?

Thanks for the other tips also. I've got a flat rate deal with my lab, so transfer times will not be an issue. And I'll worry about working with proxies when I get to it ! Like you, I thought I would try starting with the best quality.

I read your earlier posts AFTER I had dubbed off the telecine to HDCam, otherwise I would have gone for that DVCProHD option, which the lab could offer.

Thanks again for you help,
James
 
Glad I could help! I wished there had been someone like me when I was looking for help, especially since these transfers cost so much money!

If they're doing the transfer in Final Cut, it would only be in Quicktime .mov format. Whether you'll be editing on a Mac or a PC, Premiere should read those files just fine. (I switch between both platforms without any problems).

Make sure you update Premiere to version 4.0.1, otherwise it won't be able to recognize the P2 .mxf files, if you decide to go that route.

Anyway, good luck with your project and let me know if you have any other questions!
David.
 
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