The Trials of Working With Actors

[Michele Seidman]

LOL... I actually teach everyone everything. I'll stand in front of everybody actors and crew and go over the basics of sound, lighting, and camera. Right now remember I'm on a small set with no 5 year pros.

that will change when time means 10k or more per minute on set! sad but true.

As I get more pros on set, the more I'll scale back this form of filmmaking - however I do hope that I'm able to keep the same type of love that is on our set.

the love can be kept but the time constraints will alter a lot.

Yeah, I agree. I actually have a rule of thumb. "I'll do any job, until I find someone who does it better. At that point I'll release the position to someone else." As more money comes in, this will tend to be more of the case. Right now I tend to be better than 85% of the people I run into. But I'm a rare bird.

yes indeed a rare bird but many indie folk learn it ground floor up and that does make rare birds these days.

Like I said above, about the whole release thing. I'm wondering sometimes if I am the best "director" solution. I'm definately not bad - better than most, but I'm starting to think I'm much more suited as a producer.

i figured out the same thing myself. i am great at pulling everyone together but as a director i want to focus on the actors too much and stress about having the perfect crew to make up for my flaws and having that level of trust with them all...yup...much better producing than directing! for me at least.

Yeah, this kinda p!ssed me off. But I knew it was in love, the problem was he brought it up at least 3 or 4 times. none of the other actors had a problem. I generally start with - "Quiet on the set, Quiet Quiet (pause) You got speed? (to both audio and video) ok... (pause) whenever you're ready..." If that's not telling you were starting what is? hahaha

well...to an actor who has heard 'action' called year after year for longer than half the posters here have been alive...it IS hard to change your expectations for many. i just love indie and have done so many now that i got used to things changing up a lot. many actors get set in their ways and do not adapt very quickly. that is why some camera actors don't do stage and vice versa

I am suprised that I see a number of actors audition that do rather well, have a solid resume and then on set I have to give direction on how to hit a mark - WITHOUT LOOKING! Ive been lucky actually, I seem to find the good ones.

oy veh Noel....don't ya just hate when an actor can't hit the mark? If it means anything, I teach all my actors how to hit their mark, how to find their lights, how to stay out of the crews way during new set ups, how to stay near hair and make up, etc etc. I even teach them how to check in and out of set and where to go first because no one seems to teach them this stuff and they get to set and fall apart. Not mine dag nab it...I got a 7 year old girl that can repeat actions over and over without missing a cue and her continuity is envy worthy!

The easiest thing to have to deal with is making a theater actor perform for the camera, but it still needs to be done. Shooting them a ton before they are officially cast is the best you can do... do call backs even if there is only one actor that you want to see... work with them one afternoon and gauge whether you can get them ready. Either way you should have an idea of how they will block from the auditions. Shoot fully blocked rehearsals with the rest of the cast. The best thing you could do is show them the footage so they understand... though unfortunately that could also backfire in a big way if you are dealing with someone craving approval or not too sure of themselves...

USLatin

I agree with 99% of this but can I add a clarification to one item? What am I saying...I AM going to add a clarification and if you think I missed the mark feel free to correct me.

You mention theatre actors and used the term easy...and my clarification would be black box and studio theatre actors would be easy. If you get those who do tons of musical theatre and main stage, you often have to get them to tone it down. Black box actors don't do the huge acting for the back of the house because the audience is often right on top of them but main stage actors have to be tweaked a lot if they have not done enough camera work to know it magnifies every facial tic.

I like to be able to watch dailies with my actors, after I've already watched them alone or with other creative minds in the room. I will try to be able to find people like that... but sometimes you can't cast easy to work with, sometimes you have to cast whomever gives you what you want, even if that guy can't learn a single line of your dialogue. Even if you want to shoot yourself in the head in the editing room, sometimes pain can mean you are giving birth to something special.

Anywho, you see what I am saying...

lol...never let me watch dalies if i am lucky enough to be in one of your films! i am my own worst enemy and will try to alter everything if i see it before it is done. feel free to tell me if you want me to change thing according to what you saw in dalies but don't let me watch! trust me on this one...lol

I agree with this 100%. When I am directing, I would not let anyone but myself be involved in directing an actor. There is an intimacy there that needs to be maintained and a trust that needs to be protected. You are collaborating on a vision and interference is incredibly distracting. Acting is incredibly difficult under the best circumstances and you really need to create a safe space where the person doesn't feel subject to critique or a responsibility to interact with people on the crew as to their performance. (no matter how well intended)

bosindy...I like what you said about the intimacy and trust. I find it hard to be pulled in other directions all the sudden. I can make the alterations but if the director hired me I hope it is partly because he knew I could give him what he needs or asks for. Then if he does need me to change things I already do have a level of trust with him and if he asks me to change things it does not fluster me as much as if it comes from all different directions.

The actor does need to have his/her focus or game face before the call to action.

If I am on another director's set and I have a note that I think might help a performance, I give it to the director. (taking the director aside) I would never speak to an actor for the same reasons. It's about respecting the director's process because that is so much of what a director does. I also am happy to receive contributions from crew members when I am directing and it can be really helpful, but always to me, not to the actors.

to the director...not to me! agreed.

"Safe Space" is an excellent term to keep in mind.

USLatin

Safe Space! here here!

 

[USLatin]

Michele, yea, I agree that the tendency of the average theater actor will be to overact or exaggerate everything for it to register for the last row, especially musical theater... but, it is a million times easier to get a theater actor to fit in a movie than it is to make a screen actor fit in a theater... though I never directed a play so I shouldn't speak about this really... but you see my point I think.

One thing I like to find in my actors, if the character doesn't ask for the opposite, is absolute blind self confidence to let their instincts come through unchecked, though it needs to be well balanced with feet firmly planted on ground cause if logic goes out the window you will never convince that person to take your direction.

An other is absolute trust in my vision and in my ability to manifest it, an absolute deal breaker.

About watching dailies, I try to find people that can watch them with me, that doesn't mean that I always get what I want though. I'd also say that probably most are affected in a negative way, but not all would if you are there with them talking to them about it, telling them how much you like what doesn't need to change, and why. Also, explaining why you think specifics could be changed, if there is no reason then it will do nothing but plant a seed of self doubt, or doubt in their director's abilities. But by this point I have a relationship with the actors, good communication, and a good idea of how they could react.
Not being able to watch your own dailies is a problem IMO. If you paint you have to look at the canvas, if you write you have to read your work... However if the actor isn't ready to work with me like that then I would certainly avoid making it harder for them. I was the same way about dailies... but I made the effort to break past that because I wanted to be able to have more of an impact in my performance. I wouldn't do anything without watching what we are doing.

I hope nobody takes my posts and anything more than quick comments, I would never dream of creating a comprehensive summary of this, it would have to be a book.

 

[jls4]

About watching dailies, I try to find people that can watch them with me, that doesn't mean that I always get what I want though. I'd also say that probably most are affected in a negative way, but not all would if you are there with them talking to them about it, telling them how much you like what doesn't need to change, and why. Also, explaining why you think specifics could be changed, if there is no reason then it will do nothing but plant a seed of self doubt, or doubt in their director's abilities. But by this point I have a relationship with the actors, good communication, and a good idea of how they could react.
Not being able to watch your own dailies is a problem IMO.

I guess you guys have serious money! hahaha We never had time to do anything but skim the dailies once or twice. Shooting 12 to 14 hour days can be rough. We didn't have much time to stop and check out what we had done. I did find that in watching dailies, it was hard for me to stay glued to them. I wasn't really sure what I was looking for, besides maybe the tape eating up my favorite shot.

I like the way Justin talked about dailies, basically having an editor on set and sending the files to him directly and letting him edit as the movie was shot. At least this way you truly know if you missed something. You can see how continuity went from scene to scene. and manybe I'm still to nieve and young, but 95% of the time, I knew if we had the shot before I left the scene. There were many times when I just was like "this is it - if you don't get it we have to move on." Maybe that's the producer inside of me, but I spend lots of time with actors before we shoot and when I'm on a timeline, they each get about an hour to make the scene work, after that I have to move on. there was only 2 times that I didn't do this and gave them more time. but I have several shots, where the actors are just okay . It's unfortunate, but it's life.

 

[USLatin]

You guess wrong... bu watching dailies I actually mean watching whatever I feel an actor could benefit from... sometimes it takes seeing it to get it. Sometimes you have a second and all you need to do is pull up the P2 clip menu. Or when there are days in between and I have something to show. Again, not always the best thing to do... but for those times when you can have an open dialogue with an actor it is really nice... I also want a Ferrari but that "problem" doesn't keep me up at night... or does it? maybe I meant the TV show "Dailies" on Reelz? hehe... but simply put, if you have time to stop and watch then why now? and if the reason why you have to explain yourself long and hard is because you couldn't just show it to the actor for fear that they will break down then that is an issue.. NOT a big one but it all depends, it is all relative man! E=MC2 ya kno?

 

[jls4]

You guess wrong... bu watching dailies I actually mean watching whatever I feel an actor could benefit from... sometimes it takes seeing it to get it. Sometimes you have a second and all you need to do is pull up the P2 clip menu. Or when there are days in between and I have something to show. Again, not always the best thing to do... but for those times when you can have an open dialogue with an actor it is really nice... I also want a Ferrari but that "problem" doesn't keep me up at night... or does it? maybe I meant the TV show "Dailies" on Reelz? hehe... but simply put, if you have time to stop and watch then why now? and if the reason why you have to explain yourself long and hard is because you couldn't just show it to the actor for fear that they will break down then that is an issue.. NOT a big one but it all depends, it is all relative man! E=MC2 ya kno?

I'm guessing all this is not towards me, cause I don't know what the "not showing it to the actor" - thing is about.

My only problem with Dailies is watching 2 to 4 hours of footage after I've shot 12 hours. I still have to sleep and eat. LOL My hope is that in the future I can have the time to do so. As for the actor thing, I could care less if actors see or not see. Most of the time, when we did watch some of the dailies, the actors were the main ones who wanted to see the footage. Them and the DP.

Because my role was Director / Producer / Lighting / Misc Crew / Craft Services / Location Scout / etc . As soon as we finished a scene, I was preparing for the next. By the time I got home (after driving an average of 45 minutes each way) The last thing I was looking to do is look at shots that I figured I had gotten already.

I hope to raise a signifigant amount of money for the next feature. I know on that one the dailies will be a lot more important because I'll have actors that are getting paid. And when you have those type, you can't just reshoot once the movie's over. 99% of my actors for the current movie, I could always call them back, just in case. So the money thing was more of a joke, but I've recognized that depending on who you talk to, money can mean more or less. For some people $25K is a lot of money, for some $250K is no money. It's just about where you are.

 

[Michele Seidman]

Michele, yea, I agree that the tendency of the average theater actor will be to overact or exaggerate everything for it to register for the last row, especially musical theater... but, it is a million times easier to get a theater actor to fit in a movie than it is to make a screen actor fit in a theater... though I never directed a play so I shouldn't speak about this really... but you see my point I think.

About watching dailies, I try to find people that can watch them with me, that doesn't mean that I always get what I want though. I'd also say that probably most are affected in a negative way, but .....I hope nobody takes my posts and anything more than quick comments, I would never dream of creating a comprehensive summary of this, it would have to be a book.

USLatin I do agree with what you said about stage to camera instead of from camera to stage. But the stage talent has a luxury of rehearsal time to really get in depth where the camera actor often has to make changes on the spot. So the habits are different on a few things.

I have to agree a bit with jls...

about money and time for dailies but again...I myself prefer to trust my director to tell me what to change. if he wants to play back something bad and let me see it...I can handle that. but sitting through the whole thing...no matter what, I will try to fix things that are not broken even if you say point blank "I love when you do this so don't change it"...as my own worst enemy, I will. many actors will tell you the same. i know some major players who won't watch dailies or even the finished film. i will watch the final at least once but there are few projects I have watched more than once.

 

[Nathyn]

I have to watch all my stuff over and over again. LOL. (I'm the editor many times).

-Nate

 

[Michele Seidman]

I have to watch all my stuff over and over again. LOL. (I'm the editor many times).

-Nate

I can do that when I put on a wig and make a silly video for youtube...but dang..I don't think I could edit my own acting on a film. You are far braver than me on that one!

Michele

 

[GregWilliams2175]

I have had my fair share of actor problems. Most recent being a no-show

 

[Nathyn]

I can do that when I put on a wig and make a silly video for youtube...but dang..I don't think I could edit my own acting on a film. You are far braver than me on that one!

Michele

I just pretend like I'm watching any action film only I have to put it together.

-Nate

 

[USLatin]

USLatin I do agree with what you said about stage to camera instead of from camera to stage. But the stage talent has a luxury of rehearsal time to really get in depth where the camera actor often has to make changes on the spot. So the habits are different on a few things.

I have to agree a bit with jls...

about money and time for dailies but again...I myself prefer to trust my director to tell me what to change. if he wants to play back something bad and let me see it...I can handle that. but sitting through the whole thing...no matter what, I will try to fix things that are not broken even if you say point blank "I love when you do this so don't change it"...as my own worst enemy, I will. many actors will tell you the same. i know some major players who won't watch dailies or even the finished film. i will watch the final at least once but there are few projects I have watched more than once.

Yea, but screen actors in turn have the benefit of us killing ourselves in the editing booth often creating magic that was never there to begin with. I love knowing what I will do when I see the last take and then remembering that in the booth. Often finding better ways yet to bring out more conflict, or whatever we are going for.

In your case I wouldn't ask you to watch the dailies then... it is great that you are clear about that and I will certainly not make it harder for you by forcing you. Also I would cherish and guard that trust, once I earned it, at all costs. That is till we screened it, then we can get into a fight if we so please. :beer:

I have to watch all my stuff over and over again. LOL. (I'm the editor many times).

-Nate

I've done that... and found it tough but rewarding. It really helped my acting to have to break down every little thing I did... it helped me get into my own head and more. However, just like when I am not part of the cast, I really need a second opinion for editing... not that I will follow it blindly but I am an overly rational person and I need to discuss stuff to feel like I didn't mess up... plus that other person often comes up with marvelous ideas that make the editing better. Hopefully that guy is a working editor if possible.

 

[Nathyn]

I can do that when I put on a wig and make a silly video for youtube...but dang..I don't think I could edit my own acting on a film. You are far braver than me on that one!

Michele

Check out the User film section. I just uploaded "Wages of Sin."

-Nate

 

[Michele Seidman]

Yea, but screen actors in turn have the benefit of us killing ourselves in the editing booth often creating magic that was never there to begin with. I love knowing what I will do when I see the last take and then remembering that in the booth. Often finding better ways yet to bring out more conflict, or whatever we are going for.

In your case I wouldn't ask you to watch the dailies then... it is great that you are clear about that and I will certainly not make it harder for you by forcing you. :beer:

You are right. Most actors will never get the editing done. I still think Jack fixed some of my work with his editing for ALMTF. I always try to offer multiple reads and expressions if a director will allow me because I know they might be able to use that in post.

On dalies...if a director wants to show me something that he thinks is not working...I will watch and ask him to guide me through what he needs to be altered. It is watching all of it where I get in danger because I hate everything I do and will try to change it all. See how that can be an issue too?

 

[USLatin]

Yea, I have no problem seeing your point. Like I said several posts ago, I too once had that problem. I guess what really helped it was when I started editing.

 

[kimko]

As an actor, I have been involved in dosens of productions over the past two decades. I would like to open this thread to share experiences from actors and directors, writers and P.A.s, on the good , the bad, and the ugly of working with talent.

Actors are an essential part of film making, of course until CGI becomes so advance that we all become obsolete. But from the complications of auditioning to the late arrivals, the forgetting of lines, outbursts of laughter and freak outs, I'm sure everyone has a story or two to share about working with them.

As Hitchcock once said, "I never said all actors are cattle; what I said was all actors should be treated like cattle."

I'm not intending to make this a 'complaint' thread, at all. Just curious to hear some of the humorous or inspirational stories about working on a set and dealing with talent, especially in the field of independant film where budgets are small and the talent is hard to find, along with being hard to keep in line.

Any thoughts?

yeah a lot of low budget fresh out of school directors who think they can write and direct have no clue......................................:zombie_smiley:

 

[JJ Alexander]

I am a pro actor living in NYC. I have worked on Bway, Off-Bway, ffilm and TV. I have made a point to be a kind, prepared, flexible actor and have studied with almost all the great teachers in NYC.
While I have had tons of great experiences with actors, I have learned first hand that actors can be major ass holes.
It comes from working in an industry that creates overwhelming insecurity.

I was working with a female star a few years ago on a film and she was a dream in every way. I had a good size supporting role and all my 6 scenes were with her and it was so creative and calaboritive I was in heaven.
I also worked in a tiny summer theater in a 2 character play with an no name actress who was an evil, psycho, sadist and I left the production because I felt unsafe to be on stage with her because she was very capable of pulling a fast one during the show.

The crazyness of the business breeds this. It's unfortunate but it is what it is.

Most any profession has plenty of nut jobs as well.

 

[jessicalsin]

I very much agree with that statement! It is true of any industry! There are some people who are wonderful and make the experience just great for you and there are others who really push the boundaries of people's tolerance. I've had many jobs and yeah, there are nuts everywhere, but in this industry people seem to think that it's okay to behave that way...it really isn't. I mean I'm new to the industry and I suppose I don't really have any right to say anything, but I feel it's best to grim and bear it, the more the other person freaks out the better you look for staying cool. I will admit having gotten frustrated on set, but never to the point of losing my mind!