Scarlet: 35mm Adapters are... here to stay.

K

Kholi

Section Moderator
*This thread subject to drastic changes, much like the entirety of the Scarlet and EPIC "Brain" line; count on it.


Why did I start this thread? Because, it's totally relevant to 35mm Adapters. With the specs finally announced (subject to change) along with a basic "Brain" price difference between the 2/3" Mysterium X Chip and the S35 Mysterium X chip there are already discussions popping back up about 35mm Adapter usage on the cheaper, 3K version.

So, let's have a discussion nearly a year in advance, even though the specs will probably change, over the advantages and disadvantages of Scarlet + 35mm Adpater versus Scarlet S35. By the time these things actually hit shelves? This will be the database for 35mm Scarlet Applications, thoughts, rants, projections I suppose.

I'd like to see no arguments about whether it'll come out or not. I'd like to not be privy to words like "fanboy" in regards to Scarlet or 35mm Adapter brands. I haven't even been around the 35mm Adapter forum because it just gets way too crazy in these woods.

Let's just fry our brains over what may not be, but what a lot of us hope to be.

With that...

Why a 35mm Adapter Scarlet? Well, let's check the specs.

1226800173.jpg


Right off the cliff Scarlet 2/3" Gets 3k @ 120FPS. S35 Gets a whopping (and probably mostly useless) 5k@30p and 2k@60p. I'm pretty sure a lot of people are loving that.

And even more so when you hit the price of the "brain" --
Scarlet 2/3" -- 2500.00
Scarlet S35 -- 7000.00

It's quite natural that people are already cheering for the 2500.00 Scarlet + 35mm Adapter combination. Sure as heck won't be another adapter combination that could touch it (as of today, November 14th, 2008).

Pros of 35mm Adapter Scarlet --

- Probably Will Cost thousands less
- 120FPS when you want it
- Different look to your Scarlet Footage thanks to diffusion characteristics
- PL Mount option (doesn't seem to be one for the 2/3")
- Different Lens Mount Options altogether.
- Different frame sizes or variable FOV, including 35mm of course.

Cons --

- Light Loss
- Diffusion Characteristics
- Resolution Drop
- Unit Size and Weight once attached
- Ground Glass grain/pattern showing up at high resolution OR at Frame Rates higher than 60FPS (nobody knows if this will happen.)


So what would you do? Go for the 2/3" Scarlet with 120FPS, grab a lens that will enact as a great relay AND something you can take off for high speeds shots?

Or get an S35 Scarlet and spend the extra thousands. Make the full transition from Frankenstein to Man, so to speak.

OR, go with 2/3" FOV altogether and perhaps find a C-Mount > Nikon/Canon adapter to use some SLR glass that way?

Thoughts? Opinions? Sacrifices to the Camera Gods?
 
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why do these guys put all this info out and make us wait a year before we can purchase one. at the mercy of the merchants. I hope for the day someone will come out with everything we ned at the right price point and not murmer a word until they are fully stocked and ready to ship.
 
S35 for me. i prefer the simplicity of it. will rock a minimal set-up that won't draw too many eyes when shooting in public. and i don't use slow motion very often at all. if i need it that day, i'll rent an epic for an afternoon.
 
from a purely hypothetical standpoint.....

I as a DOP, would have to go with the 7,000$ S35 PL/Nikon/Canon Scarlet.

The Lens on the 2/3" scarlet is already a 2.8, and likely it has an ISO around 320, like the RED one.

So after you zoom in to the GG ( let take for granted that its a 2.8 all the way through... and that the built in lens can even focus that close...) Youre still working with similar lighting restrictions as the HVX200 and adapter. Which is to say.... Your going to need alot of light.

A 320 ASA S35 Scarlet, with a Set of super speeds, or master primes, or fast Canon/Nikon glass is going to handle in a much more efficient way with no resolution drop. Natural light and practicals become a viable shooting source again.
 
Don't get me wrong: I'm going s35 scarlet wihhiut a doubt. I agree with no more restrictions. foe the sake of hypothetical situations, an all.

As projected an S35 scarlet is going to run a few thousand more than 7k. I am counting pn 12-14k myself.
 
can the current adapters handle 120 fps without showing grain? i'm guessing the g35 to be the only one and you can't stop down the lenses that much.

zak, i'm going to talk you into the a-cam d2 ;)
 
I have to be honest - and don't get me wrong... I have an adapter and I love the look of it.
I love the look of 35mm film depth of field.

But that's because my choices with my HPX170 are either 1/3" chips, or use the adapter.

But I really don't get the obssession with Depth of Field.
I mean, with a 1/3" camera - sure, because I don't always want EVERYTHING in focus....
but once you get into 2/3" territory, I find it totally liveable.

I mean, the Viper is a 2/3" chip camera - and it seems to look pretty good to most people.
:)

I'm actually debating (for the next year) between the S35 Scarlet, or getting two of the 2/3" Scarlets.
 
Most people are shooting the viper with digiprimes though. Probably not something a scarlet user are going to be using.

A big thing for me is interchangable lenses. I love using different lenses for different looks and there's just not a whole lot of choises in the 2/3" relm.
 
Matty_g said:
A big thing for me is interchangable lenses. I love using different lenses for different looks and there's just not a whole lot of choises in the 2/3" relm.
Click to expand...

Fair enough - good point.
I guess the way Kholi framed the original post I assumed it was a depth of field issue.
 
Thats the beauty of the S35 scarlet though... you get all of Nikons line, All of Canon's line... And EVERY CINEMA LENS made..... ( almost everything is available rehoused in PL)

I would LOVE to use some vintage lenses from the 30's or something like that on the S35 SCLT. They would look so cool.... Also trick lenses that arent a fortune... Tilt shift, Lens Babies.... etc... On Canon mount they are actually affordable.
 
super baltars, Matty. LOL.

But matt has it right, Luis. Its not just about depth, it's also about lens choice, which will be very limited with ye 2/3" Scarlet. Then again, it's also going to come in cheaper hence the thread spawn.

I listed 120fps as a possible issue. I really don't think that one is gonna fly. I would be sorts interested in what the adapter adds to the image.
 
bimdas said:
I say its a marketing ploy. A year is plenty of time for people to save up for a scarlet rig.
Click to expand...

good point. I look at the prices now and think what I would buy right now, but then remember that it's a year away and I can save for a camera a little higher in the line.

(and if my wife asks you all know nothing)
 
i think red jus tries to capture too much market share in the end they will end up struggling to bring so many new products to market... if all of them will reach final market, then it won't be 2009 for sure...

it's all just an illusion now.

Also, did you think of RED's weight? what tripod you have to use? how much it will cost?
what about steadicam? all chep merlins etc - forget it... even more, scarlet is not gonna
be run and gun...
 
Kholi said:
*This thread subject to drastic changes, much like the entirety of the Scarlet and EPIC "Brain" line; count on it.

Pros of 35mm Adapter Scarlet --

- Probably Will Cost thousands less
- 120FPS when you want it
- Different look to your Scarlet Footage thanks to diffusion characteristics
- PL Mount option (doesn't seem to be one for the 2/3")
- Different Lens Mount Options altogether.
- Different frame sizes or variable FOV, including 35mm of course.

Cons --

- Light Loss
- Diffusion Characteristics
- Resolution Drop
- Unit Size and Weight once attached
- Ground Glass grain/pattern showing up at high resolution OR at Frame Rates higher than 60FPS (nobody knows if this will happen.)


So what would you do? Go for the 2/3" Scarlet with 120FPS, grab a lens that will enact as a great relay AND something you can take off for high speeds shots?

Or get an S35 Scarlet and spend the extra thousands. Make the full transition from Frankenstein to Man, so to speak.

OR, go with 2/3" FOV altogether and perhaps find a C-Mount > Nikon/Canon adapter to use some SLR glass that way?

Thoughts? Opinions? Sacrifices to the Camera Gods?
Click to expand...

Wow! Great news S35 is capable of shooting >30fps!!!
I'm getting one once it's out (and selling my Letus as well as HMC151). To me the most important pros of such setup will be:
- sensitivity - and this is money. The ASA of my HMC151 (cinelike gamma) with Letus on it is about 100 (when zoomed to 22x16mm gg area). And this is when my camera lens is wide open! To make edge-to-edge sharpness acceptable I have to further close the HMC lens to f4. So I end up having ASA 25. Tons of light need to be pumped to light the scene sufficiently. And lot of light light means lot of money, setup time, power supply issues...
- cinematic bokeh - I love the bokeh some of my Canon lenses offer when used with my SLR. The 35mm adapter makes it awful.
- 'deep DOF' - finally I'm able to close my 35mm lens down past f2.8 without grain. I love shallow DOF, but sometimes I just want it deep. For both artistic reasons and convenience (with my current setup f2.8 is my limit and I often work at f2 or even f1.4, which makes focus pulling difficult, if not impossible)
- fast shutter without grain (for slow motion, fast movements)
- lighter setup
- resolution (last and least - I won't shoot at 5K at all, I think. 2K is enough for me at the moment)

If I need some diffusion I prefer a filter in a mattebox than ugly smear of vibrating gg.
Click to expand...
 
My only beef with all the specs are RED's obsession with resolution. I'd rather have a 2 to 3k camera with a super 35 sized chip with an ASA of 600 or so than a 4-5k camera with an ASA of 320. I'd rather have a Phantom at 2k than a RED ONE at 4k for the same reason. Unfortunately the Phantom is three times the price.

I take delivery on a RED ONE in about three-4 weeks and as much as I like everything about the camera, I'd gladly sacrifice rez for ASA and less noise. It'd be nice if RED offered different chip sets that offered a different set of compromisies ie) 5k at 320, 4 k at 400, 3k at 500 and so on, almost like switching out stocks. They'd make more money, we'd have more choice.
 
Tomas Riuka said:
i think red jus tries to capture too much market share in the end they will end up struggling to bring so many new products to market... if all of them will reach final market, then it won't be 2009 for sure...

it's all just an illusion now.

Also, did you think of RED's weight? what tripod you have to use? how much it will cost?
what about steadicam? all chep merlins etc - forget it... even more, scarlet is not gonna
be run and gun...
Click to expand...

Nobody was using a merlin with a 35mm adaptor anyway. RED ONE exists and they're everywhere. The new RED's will be a reality. By the time they do come out, storage will increase to the point where Scarlet in its small form (CF cards, minimal accessories) can truly be as run and gun as any ENG camera. The form factor / weight will be considerably smaller than RED ONE. The body alone is almost a third the size. The interchangeable modularity of the design is brilliant - switchable chip sets, etc.

Once you're set up, in its cheapest configuration with S35 chip, rods, MB, FF, Tripod, etc, you'll be about 35G in. Which is about 5 G more than what I've spent getting a complete HVX / Adaptor set built. Yeah it's in the planning stages but it's not like Kinetta. As proved by RED ONE, they're for real in terms of announcing and delivering. To call it an illusion is illusory.

And that is a good deal.
 
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Tim Naylor said:
My only beef with all the specs are RED's obsession with resolution. I'd rather have a 2 to 3k camera with a super 35 sized chip with an ASA of 600 or so than a 4-5k camera with an ASA of 320. I'd rather have a Phantom at 2k than a RED ONE at 4k for the same reason. Unfortunately the Phantom is three times the price.
Click to expand...

I've had dreams about a prosumer camera with a FF sensor that outputs to 1080p. I want to think that there would be a niche market for it. Scarlet won't be that camera, but it may be a step in the right direction.

Hopefully they have enough time to tweak the framerate on the S35 Scarlet. 60fps is not a deal breaker, but there is certainly room for adjustment :)
 
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