'film' grading, A1 + Letus Extreme

you are forgetting the other two triangles, the shadows and the highlights. used in combination you can pretty much do all those things you listed in curves.
curves isn't all powerful, you can't really lift the shadows without affecting the highlights and vice versa. if you pull on the shadows, the curve will adjust and affect the highlights unless you start adding more points but then you are going to start seeing some posterizing.

and i'm not bagging on curves here, curves are great, i use them interchangeably with levels. in fact i was like you a couple of years ago and didn't even give levels a look at. but they both have their strengths and weaknesses. once you use a 3 color wheel like colorista, you'll never go back to curves or levels for anything but corrections.
 
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I guarantee you cannot achieve the same thing using just levels, which you even stated yourself.

For your own benefit, i will post a raw image and a corrected image using only curves and nothing else. ( This may seem to come out being aggressive but i assure you i am simply stating facts ) You haven't a clue how i "used to be" and yes, i used to use levels only, until i was shown by a professional in the field how much difference there is between the two. It was difficult for me to learn curves, but once i did i never looked back.

But what you said is correct, you can add multiple points to a curve and that is exactly the benefit you cannot have with simply using levels. Posterizing will only occur if you are dealing with bad quality footage, but now a days with P2 and uncompressed, that is an issue of the past. And you are incorrect about not being able to lift the shadows without affecting the high's, this is quite simple and easy to do. Can you achieve similar results using levels? Yes, identical? no. But the fact that you can adjust the low, mids, and highs independently of each other using curves and not in levels means you have less control. Really, that alone means curves gives the user more control over their image, regardless of the pro's and con's of it's effect on the image.

If you can achieve the same result, then i will 1) gain new knowledge and 2) accept that it is possible to do the same with both. But until then, i am quite convinced that curves achieves much more accurate and greater results.


For the sake of quality purposes, i will only use curves on the JPG image and now the image from the video so we are both working off of the same bit information.

JPG image:

jpgframewv0.jpg


Here is the image corrected in photoshop using only Curves:

curvedii0.jpg
 
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Glad to see this awesome thread still kicking. Unfortunately, I'm much more of a levels vs curves kinda guy even though I absolutely agree curves can do much more from what I've seen in action.

I usually tend to start with increasing the black level of any clip (with the M2 to increase contrast) then using the RGB corrector. Seems like curves combines the 2. Is that the case?
 
If you think of a curve, and put levels within a curve, all you have control over is the low's mid's and high's. You have very little to no control over what happens in-between as they become dependant with each other. Curves allows you finite control independantly of the lows, mids, and highs.
 
heres a quick dicky around with levels. I've masked the levels on the top half and the curves (your one)is on the bottom half. sure their not exact, you can clearly see the line seperating them but the results are close enough for my liking.

levcurv.jpg


and heres mine adjusted with levels on its own. mind the 2nd gen jpg compression. my shadows are a tad darker but i feel my highlights are saved from posterizing

levels.jpg


maybe i should give you a picture with only levels and then you can try and match it with curves?
 
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Not too shabby. In comparing, they are quite similar, but what i see more in yours is the level of noise has gone up a tad. This is part of the problem with simply using levels without having control of every area on the curve independent of each other. This is probably also due to how you have re compressed the file when you saved it and depending on the local of your upload, further degradation of your image. In which case i would invite you to open it in photoshop and save it as a full quality jpg, and then upload it to imageshack without any resizing or what not.

Here are comparisons between the two:

curvesvslevels01uf8.jpg


curvesvslevels02yk6.jpg



This is solely to point out that yes, both curves and levels can be used to achieve great results, the reason curves is a more powerful tool is solely due to the fact that you have independent control over every section of the "curve" independently over each other. Being able to add points along the curve, as many as you want, and being able to move them anywhere without shifting or influencing other areas means you can control your image to a more precise value.

When comparing the two, it is quite easy to see that both show similar levels in the high's and mids. Your blacks are a little more crushed but there is more noise levels in your mids.

This isn't to start a flame war or anything bimdas, in fact quite the opposite. It is important that we show what we do here in order to help some that are maybe confused and clear up any misconceptions.
 
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yeah thats called jpeg compression. if you'd noticed they are under 90kbs where else yours are over 400. i'd upload the psd but why bother when you didn't. since we're nitpicking I noticed apparent posterizing in your highlights. especially on the side of the cups. i prefer a rolloff in the highlights to darks, but to each and their own.

even though i didn't know we were judging jpeg compression techniques, here we go, saved out of photoshop at full 12 quality and at a size of 386kbs.
level02.jpg
 
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Awsome, yeah that is much better. You are correct about the posterizing. But with more care that can be avoided. Your image still is noisier in general but has a smoother transition of the candle flame and it's surrounding luminance.

All I'm trying to say bimdas is that regardless of the final product, with curves you have more control over your image. Not which one is better to use, that is up to the user. The only point i'm trying to make is the control factor. Because to be able to add as many points along the curve as you would like, is to introduce more control over your curve. Plain and simple. No need to go into this any further.
 
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well its apples to apples and in the end we are just comparing noise to noise :) You did say there was no way levels could do the same thing as curves and i am always up for a friendly challenge. did i say curves are great and i'm a fan?.... but levels are better.
 
Beautiful colours on that clip papa, mind sharing your a1 settings and maybe even your grading technique. You are getting some beautiful juice out of your camera!
 
Thanks Sam,

The A1 preset that i'm using on this project is TrueColor.

Basically, Cine1 gamma, Black stretch at -9 ped ( i always crush the blacks a smidge more so i could probably bring it to Mid )

Sharpness at -4, cine 1 matrix and the rest is the preset from truecolor.

i don't know if what i do with the coloring is orthodox, but here is a grab of my corrections in premier pro cs3.

screenshotvx6.jpg
 
oh, i forgot to mention. Mostly everything you see here is lit with Richard's Cool lights, Fluorescents and 150 watt CDM fresnels.
 
Hey papa, this is by far the most filmic picture you've captured from the lovely a1 to date. (imo). Looks good man.
 
Hey papa when you say black stretch at -9, what do you mean do you mean black stretch enabled and pedestal at -9?
 
More stills ( I should probably open a new thread in the user film section ) But it's still relevant here :)

compression kills some of the tone.

shot32mb0.jpg




shot31hq6.jpg




shot30fc8.jpg




shot33va5.jpg
 
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