How Has RED Affected your 35mm Adaptor Business?

T

Tim Naylor

Veteran
When RED first came out, the price gouging of RED owners kept it pretty exclusive. Now that the market's getting saturated, I believe there's a price point in terms of budget or rental that eclipses using a 35mm adaptor and opting for RED. Not sure what that is.

I've definitely seen a drop off in 35mm adaptor rentals as well as hiring me with the package in the last three months while seeing people renting RED packages for what they should be rented for - cheap.

I'll be lowering my kit rental considerably once I get a handle on what the market will bare. As of now, I'm actually prepping a job to be shot on RED that I would've done on my 35 adaptor a year ago. Jobs that used to be Varicam / PS I now bid with RED.

The death of 35mm adaptors may not be at the hands of the D90 and such but perhaps at the hand of a glut of REDs, especially when they hit the used market. This will happen as many people who thought they'd make a profit in the rental market but don't have the accessories or lenses people need or the skills to go out with it, I believe will soon be unloading. With the economy tanking, I think surplus REDs will hit the market and you'll begin to see rates that reflect that.

The 35mm adaptor is in a weird place. The light loss puts you in a bigger lighting bracket for narrative which puts you near the threshold of a RED. Red with its higher sensitivity can offset the higher camera rental with a smaller lighting package. The last job I did with a 35mm adaptor was a PSA / Doc style job.

It seems everyday, the budget threshold for 35mm adaptors gets lower and lower.

Love to hear anyone's thoughts, predictions, etc on this. Let's keep it civil. No fanboys allowed.
 
The RED ONE is a threat for the high end 35mm adapter market and it looks like the upcoming SCARLETT will do the same thing to the lower end adapter market - as long as they decide to make the sensor bigger than 2/3 inch.
 
I think we all know that there will eventually come a time where 35mm adapters will no longer be necessary, and we are of course coming closer to that day, but so far as 50% of the filmmakers on this site, and probably more, will not be able to opt out for anything more than 5 thousand dollars within the next couple of years, this alone will mean that adapters will still be around the hands of consumers and pro-sumers for a number of years to come. Which may or may not be what they had in mind, but again, the usage of RED camera owners to other cameras are few and far between. Yes they will eventually become cheaper, but this only means that more people will be able to afford cameras like the hvx, dvx, and other pro-sumer goods in the lower range, which means the adapters themselves will still hold a place.

Valuable thread and a great topic for discussion, but i can say with fair confidence that adapters will still have a good 3-5 years of heavy use before they start becoming oversold by cameras that do not require them. Perhaps 5-10 years before they are obsolete, which still gives the manufacturers plenty of time to gain a profit from them and start looking to develop the next big bang for the independent film market.
 
Hasn't effected me at all, to be honest. Still get plenty of 35mm + 200A work, here, and at pretty good rates with or without me going out with the Ultimate.
 
As an owner and renter of both here's how it has broken down for me lately:

Low end adapters basically are pick and choose with whichever are familiar to the DP or camera crew. I typically recommend the SGPro but some like the Brevis and some even go for the M2 still. Currently, the LEX is the hot ticket for some reason. These are quick productions that are very used to the HVX (and now HPX) and want bottom dollar with good results.

Ultimate is what is in trouble. I keep my RED prices VERY competitive because I can afford to with help from my low end adapters and certain clients bases that are regulars. Thus, when you get a lens package and Ultimate, it gets within reach of a RED package. Still, those that are unfamiliar with RED but want the best HD they can get immediately opt for the Ultimate. It's kind of like why people still choose F23 over anything else. Also, clients that want maximum HD quality like using the

If you want best quality and speed (both on location and post) then the ultimate is the way to go for the dollar. 4k footage can't be edited and dropped to DVD or tape as fast as P2 can, and that makes a difference to clients.

I guess it depends on how you are setup. Honestly, not much TV advertising demands a RED camera but I definitely see the market getting eaten up more and more over the next year. The adapter manufacturers need to keep an eye out. B4 relays could help a lot I think.
 
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Also must consider where you live at. My Ultimate still rents for days straight (which is why I'm gettin' a second one asap) at a pretty nice price. I am going to get another M2 setup w/the new Cinesecreen II for the rest of the business that can't afford the best.

RED's post process isn't friendly enough for most people, and a lot still trust P2 acquisition and want to use adapters. Again, I really think that it depends on where you are. Most of my money is comin' in through HVXUltimate, though.

Curious, though: How much are you guys rentin'/gettin' RED packages for? Sounds like dirt cheap if it's being compared to an Ultimate setup w/Lenses.
 
I got a DIT who comes with Red, full support, storage, and monitors sans lenses for a G a day. He's the bargain guy and in demand. There's a few other guys with lens packages going for 1200-2000 depending on glass / toys. When factoring the lighting for certain projects it begins to look attractive. There's always someone new yammering about their RED purchase in NYC. My rental prices are listed at timnaylor.com on the rental page.

Oddly enough, as soon as I posted this, I get a call to rent out my Ultimate for a week. They love it.

I'm beginning to sense after people see the Ultimate/EX1 and it's workflow (much faster than P2) it begins to look attractive. For instance my EX1 has been on the shelf alot more than the HVX but now is picking up steam. Recently, Regan out of SF ran some chart tests and the Ultimate/Nikon 50mm/EX1 combo outrezzed an HDX 900/Fujinon HD lens on a rez chart. That's something.

Overall, I see 2 years max for 35 adaptors. If RED doesn't kill it. Still cameras will. But for now, they still pay earn their keep. My Ultimate paid itself off pretty quickly.
 
Tim Naylor said:
I got a DIT who comes with Red, full support, storage, and monitors sans lenses for a G a day. He's the bargain guy and in demand. There's a few other guys with lens packages going for 1200-2000 depending on glass / toys. When factoring the lighting for certain projects it begins to look attractive. There's always someone new yammering about their RED purchase in NYC. My rental prices are listed at timnaylor.com on the rental page.

Oddly enough, as soon as I posted this, I get a call to rent out my Ultimate for a week. They love it.

I'm beginning to sense after people see the Ultimate/EX1 and it's workflow (much faster than P2) it begins to look attractive. For instance my EX1 has been on the shelf alot more than the HVX but now is picking up steam. Recently, Regan out of SF ran some chart tests and the Ultimate/Nikon 50mm/EX1 combo outrezzed an HDX 900/Fujinon HD lens on a rez chart. That's something.

Overall, I see 2 years max for 35 adaptors. If RED doesn't kill it. Still cameras will. But for now, they still pay earn their keep. My Ultimate paid itself off pretty quickly.
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That's about right for a RED package. With a lens or set of lenses it ends up being 1200/day just about everywhere.

My HVX200A w/Lenses tends to be about 800. That's still considerably less than a RED package.

And, the lighting package for both isnt' that crazy, to be honest. Anyway, you know how the Ultimate works. =P It's worth the buy by just how fast that sucker pays for itself.
 
I love me some Red camera... especailly now that Computers that make the workflow easier are cheaper.....
 
Overall, I see 2 years max for 35 adaptors. If RED doesn't kill it. Still cameras will.
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Well , there's one thing about still cameras: They're designed to take still pictures - so forget about them. They will never have scene file settings like the HVX.
The moment of death for 35mm adapters will be when there's a camera like the HVX with a sensor of the size of a 35mm negative and with exchangeable lenses.
Let's wait for the redesigned SCARLETT next April.
 
MY future in adapters.

MY future in adapters.

I've been working over a year to perfect the Easom adapter and I'm now happy with the unit and upside down cage setup. Concerning market base. The market for quality 35mm adapters I think is about to hit a fair saturation point. Although I will continue to produce quality top end units in low production (approx 10 per month) I will be focusing lot's of my attention on rails, adapter plates, balance bars for tripod mounts, and solid cage mountings. Also, I'm working on a scaled down version of my adapter and rail system for the HV30 / HDC-SD9 and such $800 cameras. It will be in the $600 range for adapter and rail mounting for smaller cameras. Not a unit for the true professional, but it will put film making technology in the hands of the poor like kids who want to film their own music videos and such. I can see such a unit still used to produce quality tv commercials and the like. If such a unit exhisted 2 years ago, I would not have developed one. 1,000 to 1,200 and up for intro adapters still seems a bit high. This will make a complete, ready to film setup with camera, minus follow focus and matte box for around 1,400. I think it's the best bet for the market. That's all. For those who don't know, my stuff is here: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=110922
 
Scarlet will be a major player if it meets any kind of reasonable release dates, but canon has already released a 1080p 5D camera, Nikon will likely answer with a new model within a year, and RED has already announced a 35mm DSLR that will "revolutionize" the industry. I think people will see that adapters need to have a major feature set to be competitive, and when that happens the prices will be quite high. At that point, potential buyers/renters will feel that it is all overpriced for performance and go elsewhere.

We've already seen it happen with the ultimate, where an ultimate paired with even the HPX170 comes to over $12,000 before we even talk lenses.
 
So long as Scarlet is 2/3" I don't see it putting any pressure on Adaptors. And as long as SLR's don't shoot on a decent codec at 24p they too willl remain non-players. Ultimate w/ HPX 170 is still less than 1/2 the price of a RED with storage and necessary accessories. Is the price point of Ultimate worth it? For now, I'd say yes as most of its buyers invest in it for business as well as personal use. 4500 isn't too hard to re-coup. But the longer you wait, the more the potential returns slide.

My gut tells me in about a year and half you'll see a sizeable used market for RED ONE. With the inevitable glut driving kit rentals down, I believe a lot of speculators will bail. And that will put significant pressure on the 35mm adaptor market.

The only hope for RED will be for investment houses to issue camera rental backed securities and then we can have the feds bail out the failing RED owners when the returns just don't materialize.
 
What's the kind of price difference between an ultimate rental and a LEX. I'm curious to know how much they're going out for. I'm still on the fence about getting one.
 
I believe the Ultimate is a much better business proposition than the LEX. Though the LEX is 1/3 the price, even if my Ultimate rented for the same as my old LEX, it would make up that 2/3's price difference within a few months or less by virtue of more demand. Word spreads pretty quickly on what's hot and what's not.
 
Used REDs seem to be retaining practically 100% of their $ 17,500 value, so a glut of used REDs hitting the market may only drive that price down a very small fraction. I also don't see Scarlet imposing that much of a threat to adapters in terms of offering a similar alternative. It will be a different tool. If it does come out taking the place of an adapter, that means it has pretty much the same features as SLRs that shoot video and I'd lump it in with that group if it does. So, I think the SLR market poses the greatest risk to adapters.

That is all in relation to owning. As far as rentals go, I couldn't say. I do think that the RED workflow will make it prohibitive to a lot of potential Ultimate customers. Depending on your point of view, 18 months to a market shift might be pretty optimistic.
 
I think in two years, there's a chance for a glut of REDS (as the economy tanks) or at least some serious competition. What I'd like to see is a something that has the convenience/workflow of P2 or SxS cameras with a 35mm imager / PL/Nikon Mount. Like a bigger HVX/EX1. Avoid the workflow issues and keep it run/gun.

Just codec and frame rate keeps SLR's at bay. Two things which technology already exist to overcome. Just needs to come from a manufacturer that has no high end video biz to threaten.
 
Right now used REDs are like RRMB's, retaining all their value. But I think in two years, there's a chance for a glut of REDS (as the economy tanks and waitlists fulfilled) or at least some serious competition. What I'd like to see is a something that has the convenience/workflow of P2 or SxS cameras with a 35mm imager / PL/Nikon Mount. Like a bigger HVX/EX1. Avoid the workflow issues and keep it run/gun.

Just codec and frame rate keeps SLR's at bay. Two things which technology already exist to overcome. Just needs to come from a manufacturer that has no high end video biz to threaten.
 
It may be Nikon to do it if rumors are true. It could be Scarlet, to be honest. I don't think so, though.
 
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