Best audio compromise 4 my budget

[CiPO]

Hi guys,
I have been reading alot on this great board since long time dreaming also about all the equipment you got and use Anyway, we need to make practice with what we got and what I have is very limited
I now realize that audio is a big part of any video footage and I need to invest something to boost my results. I am now doing mostly interviewss and working on some music videos and video docu.
I got a single CCD SONY DCR-HC96E (I am in Europe) with no XLR input ! I am planning to invest 5-600USD in some HW that I could one day reuse when I will upgrade my cam (dreaming about some new panny coming out soon
I was thinking to get one NTG-2 that I could use on a table or stand to point at my subject (I am mostly doing one man band or with an other guy doing the interviews) or maybe some wless lav ?
My main concern is that I dont have any XLR input so I must use my unbalanced small jack on the cam .... what is it the most efficient way to connect the NTG-2 then or any XLR mic ? I was even planning to get an Azden FMX-20 mixer that would give me an XLR input, a small jack output and even an audio monitor port. I dont recall if that would give also the phantom power for the mic. But in case it wouldn't then I could use a battery inside the NTG-2.
I got also a separate external USB box that does 24nbts/96Khz audio digital recorder if needed for a second audio channel (with a connected laptop).
What do you think about all this ? Any other suggestion ?

My main issues are:
- camera with no XLR input
- limited budget
- primary need to get quality audio for interview and possbly some other stuff

You can hear the poor quality I get now watching my last interview (its on vimeo): http://www.vimeo.com/1644806 (the interview starts after 1 min from the beginning )

thx for all the help
CIAO
CIPO

 

[Steve House]

Hi guys,
I have been reading alot on this great board since long time dreaming also about all the equipment you got and use Anyway, we need to make practice with what we got and what I have is very limited
I now realize that audio is a big part of any video footage and I need to invest something to boost my results. I am now doing mostly interviewss and working on some music videos and video docu.
I got a single CCD SONY DCR-HC96E (I am in Europe) with no XLR input ! I am planning to invest 5-600USD in some HW that I could one day reuse when I will upgrade my cam (dreaming about some new panny coming out soon
I was thinking to get one NTG-2 that I could use on a table or stand to point at my subject (I am mostly doing one man band or with an other guy doing the interviews) or maybe some wless lav ?
My main concern is that I dont have any XLR input so I must use my unbalanced small jack on the cam .... what is it the most efficient way to connect the NTG-2 then or any XLR mic ? I was even planning to get an Azden FMX-20 mixer that would give me an XLR input, a small jack output and even an audio monitor port. I dont recall if that would give also the phantom power for the mic. But in case it wouldn't then I could use a battery inside the NTG-2.
I got also a separate external USB box that does 24nbts/96Khz audio digital recorder if needed for a second audio channel (with a connected laptop).
What do you think about all this ? Any other suggestion ?

My main issues are:
- camera with no XLR input
- limited budget
- primary need to get quality audio for interview and possbly some other stuff

You can hear the poor quality I get now watching my last interview (its on vimeo): http://www.vimeo.com/1644806 (the interview starts after 1 min from the beginning )

thx for all the help
CIAO
CIPO

The NTG-2 is an good mic but it is a shotgun. For interviews you'll mostly be indoors I would expect and hypcardioids are generally recommended unless you are in an acoustically conditioned space. If interviews are your first priority I would suggest something such as an Oktava if you're on a tight budget or an AKG Blueline SE300/CK93 combination as your first mic. Get a good boom and mount for it. To provide power and to interface their XLR outputs to your camera's mini jack in, I've been experimenting with the Juicedlink adapter and am impressed with it as a budget alternative to a field mixer. http://juicedlink.com/

 

[ICortella]

Hi Cipo,

I use a wireless tie mic set (mic and receiver) brand AKG. It costed me around 300€, and it comes with XLR and small jack. If your interviews are long like the soprano one you can record in a minidisc recorder (no more than 200€) and synchro shouldn´t be an issue.

If you pay attention on not touching the jacks in the minidisc while recording the sound should be pristine.

I don´t know if the minidisc is good as an investment, but the wireless tie mic (lavalier) is a must for interviews and you´ll use it when you buy your new camera.

I´m sure someone will have a better suggestion, but just in case check this:

AKG Wireless PR40 Receiver
AKG Wireless MP40 Transmiter

 

[CiPO]

The NTG-2 is an good mic but it is a shotgun. For interviews you'll mostly be indoors I would expect and hypcardioids are generally recommended unless you are in an acoustically conditioned space. If interviews are your first priority I would suggest something such as an Oktava if you're on a tight budget or an AKG Blueline SE300/CK93 combination as your first mic. Get a good boom and mount for it. To provide power and to interface their XLR outputs to your camera's mini jack in, I've been experimenting with the Juicedlink adapter and am impressed with it as a budget alternative to a field mixer. http://juicedlink.com/

Hi,
thx for the answer. Do you think it would mke a big difference if during indoor interviews I would use a cardioid or omni mic (maybe a lav) compared to a shotgun ? Let's say I want to have a generic approach and be also able to do outdoor (with more noise) interveiws then the NTG-2 would satisfy all the needs.
Oktava: I was also checking them out. They hava a new mic (the preamp part) working directly via USB !! No need for XLR there .... I could mount also one of their cardiod or hypercardioid caps and I would be safe. All together around 160€ and I would save on a mixer too. It was one of my first idea.
But then I would need a laptop to record the audio cos otherwise how can I plug it to my cam ?
About the Juicedlink .... as I understand it is exactly as the Azden I saw but the latter is only around $250. What you think ? have you been checking the FMX-20 ?

thanks a lot for the help guys.
CIPO

 

[CiPO]

Hi Cipo,

I use a wireless tie mic set (mic and receiver) brand AKG. It costed me around 300€, and it comes with XLR and small jack. If your interviews are long like the soprano one you can record in a minidisc recorder (no more than 200€) and synchro shouldn´t be an issue.

Why I would need to record it on a minidisc and not directly on the cam ? if it has a 3.5mm jack as output ?

I don´t know if the minidisc is good as an investment, but the wireless tie mic (lavalier) is a must for interviews and you´ll use it when you buy your new camera.

I understand most say that for interview the lav is a must but considering that with a shotgun I dont need to hassle around anyone's body, I put it on a stand, aim it and thats it. Does the lav gives really a better sounds quality compared to a well aimed hypercardiod ?
Furthermore: does the shotgut cut completely (or almost ?) the voice/questions coming from the off the camera interviewer ? In this case I should put a mic to the interviwer too. In my online video I used only one cheap mic (I guess omni) on the table (removed it in post).

thx for help
CIPO

 

[Steve House]

For indoor sit-down interviews in everyday spaces (homes, offices, the location of the interview you posted, etc) rather than a sound stage, I'd say the first choice would be a boomed hypercardioid above and in front of the subject just out of frame, second choice a hard-wired lav, third choice a wireless lav.

Omni and cardioids on a stand have a couple of serious drawback for this application ... Primarily their optimum working distance for speech will usually be between 10 to 25cm from the subject's mouth so the mic would have to be in-frame right in front of the subject's face. Their lack of directionality means they're going to pick up a lot of room ambience, reverb, and other distracting sounds. Slight movements of the subject's head can have signifigant effects on tonality of a cardioid.

Shotguns are not usually a good choice indoors because their directivity is very frequency dependent, becoming almost omni at some frequencies, That means you'll hear room reflections but with a lot of colouration - not good. The hollow sound you often hear is one result. Hypers use a different principle and are much less coloured. The shotgun pattern is also usually so tight that subject movement can present a problem if you don't have a boom operator to follow the movement constantly.

For lavs you absolutely want omni. Cardioids are available but they're very tricky to use as the slightest head turn will take your subject off-mic.

Azden does not have the best of reputations though I've never used one so I am only going by hearsay. My primary mixer is a Sound Devices 442. I have a 4-channel Juicedlink CX431 and can attest to its quality.

 

[Toenis]

Two lavalier mics, one on subject and one on interviewer.
If your camcorder has 3.5mm stereo mic input you could maybe get by with those powered Giant Squid stereo lavaliers
Ask if you can get a custom cable lengths so you can attach one mic on interviewer and another to the subject. This is by far the most reasonable upgrade but you will risk with interference from cellular phones etc but so do you get interference with XLR lavaliers as the power modules of many lavs are sensitive to such interferences.

T

 

[ICortella]

Why I would need to record it on a minidisc and not directly on the cam ? if it has a 3.5mm jack as output ?

I understand most say that for interview the lav is a must but considering that with a shotgun I dont need to hassle around anyone's body, I put it on a stand, aim it and thats it. Does the lav gives really a better sounds quality compared to a well aimed hypercardiod ?
Furthermore: does the shotgut cut completely (or almost ?) the voice/questions coming from the off the camera interviewer ? In this case I should put a mic to the interviwer too. In my online video I used only one cheap mic (I guess omni) on the table (removed it in post).

thx for help
CIPO

Maybe I´m old fashined, but I´ve used minidisc since I was doing silent Super-8. We used it as a low budget and handy DAT. I´d give a couple of reasons to use it. 1) The sampling rate is better in a minidisc than in a minidv tape. 2) Having a minijack directly attached to the camera can cause cable sounds when moving, specially with handycams. With an external recorder like the minidisc you can have any mic plugged to it and move free with the camera.

I think that to record a conversation you need either two mics or record filmlike with a cardioid on a boom. For short questions and long answers you can have the interviewee´s voice recording in the minidisc and place the interviewer close to the camcorders mic.

 

[CiPO]

Two lavalier mics, one on subject and one on interviewer.
If your camcorder has 3.5mm stereo mic input you could maybe get by with those powered Giant Squid stereo lavaliers
Ask if you can get a custom cable lengths so you can attach one mic on interviewer and another to the subject. This is by far the most reasonable upgrade but you will risk with interference from cellular phones etc but so do you get interference with XLR lavaliers as the power modules of many lavs are sensitive to such interferences.

T

Tere T !
That squid sounds very interesting and cheap. The fact that it is not preamplified mic could be a problem ? What about the quality compared to other mics like NTG or Oktava ?
THX
CIPO

 

[CiPO]

For indoor sit-down interviews in everyday spaces (homes, offices, the location of the interview you posted, etc) rather than a sound stage, I'd say the first choice would be a boomed hypercardioid above and in front of the subject just out of frame, second choice a hard-wired lav, third choice a wireless lav.

Omni and cardioids on a stand have a couple of serious drawback for this application ... Primarily their optimum working distance for speech will usually be between 10 to 25cm from the subject's mouth so the mic would have to be in-frame right in front of the subject's face. Their lack of directionality means they're going to pick up a lot of room ambience, reverb, and other distracting sounds. Slight movements of the subject's head can have signifigant effects on tonality of a cardioid.

Thanks for the answer. I get a bit confused I thought that a shotgun is in fact a hypercardiod, isn't it so ?

Azden does not have the best of reputations though I've never used one so I am only going by hearsay. My primary mixer is a Sound Devices 442. I have a 4-channel Juicedlink CX431 and can attest to its quality.

I guess here the issue is price

Thx a lot !
CIPO

 

[CiPO]

Maybe I´m old fashined, but I´ve used minidisc since I was doing silent Super-8. We used it as a low budget and handy DAT. I´d give a couple of reasons to use it. 1) The sampling rate is better in a minidisc than in a minidv tape. 2) Having a minijack directly attached to the camera can cause cable sounds when moving, specially with handycams. With an external recorder like the minidisc you can have any mic plugged to it and move free with the camera.

I think that to record a conversation you need either two mics or record filmlike with a cardioid on a boom. For short questions and long answers you can have the interviewee´s voice recording in the minidisc and place the interviewer close to the camcorders mic.

The minidisc is not a bad idea but I have some piece of equipment that would allows me to record at 24bits/96Khz via a USB box to my laptop. I could use that as separate audio recorder additionally to my miniDV.

So I guess it's gonna be wired/wless lav or hypercardioid on the table.

thx

 

[CiPO]

The NTG-2 is an good mic but it is a shotgun. For interviews you'll mostly be indoors I would expect and hypcardioids are generally recommended unless you are in an acoustically conditioned space. If interviews are your first priority I would suggest something such as an Oktava if you're on a tight budget or an AKG Blueline SE300/CK93 combination as your first mic.

HI Steve,
I was checking again the Oktava site and they have this nice piece of equipment (http://www.oktava-shop.com/view_prod.php?id=155), what do you think about it ? I can mount any caps they have (do you think the hypercard would be best for me ?) and it's powered by USB cable. One thing I don't get, how do I get the audio signal ? I don't see/read about any XLR connector or such. Do I get it via USB too ?

THX
CIPO

 

[Steve House]

Thanks for the answer. I get a bit confused I thought that a shotgun is in fact a hypercardiod, isn't it so ?

I guess here the issue is price

Thx a lot !
CIPO

Not really - some people lump hypercardioids, super-cardioids, and lobar line gradient mics together but I don't think that's accurate. Hypercardioid,super-cardioid, and lobar refer to different pickup patterns, the super being a bit more directive than the hyper though in practice they tend to blend into each other. The Neumann KMR150 is a hyper while Schoeps calls their CMC641 a supercardioid. "Shotgun" refers to the line-gradient interference tube design which is quite different from the others, and they get their name from their physical resemblance to a gun barrel. A Sennheiser MKH416 would be a classic example. They usually have a supercardioid/lobar pattern - think "lumpy" supercardioid with lobes shooting off behind the 90 and 270 degree points. Those lobes are part what make the difference - 'hypers' like the Neumann and Schoeps don't have them. Another difference is that 'hypers' have patterns that are consistent with frequency while the shotguns are very directional at some frequencies yet can approach omni at other frequencies outside the normal voice ranges.

Careful with placing the mic in a tabletop stand. Far better to get an inexpensive boom arm mic stand and mount the mic in front and ABOVE the subject pointing downward towards their throat at about a 45 degree angle. Take advantage of the directional pattern to reject room noises and reverb. Try to keep the mic within 24 inches of the subject's mouth but out of frame. If you have a hand-held boom you can mount it in a fishing-rod holder attached to a Century stand to fly the mic over the subject, an arrangment that is more flexible than a plain stage mic stand with side arm would be.

 

[Steve House]

HI Steve,
I was checking again the Oktava site and they have this nice piece of equipment (http://www.oktava-shop.com/view_prod.php?id=155), what do you think about it ? I can mount any caps they have (do you think the hypercard would be best for me ?) and it's powered by USB cable. One thing I don't get, how do I get the audio signal ? I don't see/read about any XLR connector or such. Do I get it via USB too ?

THX
CIPO

Yes, the mic gets both power and sends audio via the USB port. If you're recording direct to a computer it would work fine. If you want to go to the camera or other recorder, wouldn't work. As for the sound quality, I have nothing to base an opinion on. Might be great, might not. Many USB mics are not quite up to par with their conventional bretheren.

 

[CiPO]

Steve House: thank you for the excellent explanation. Everything is much clearer now. Your suggested mic/hyper cardioids etc are very expensive for my budget but I got all your suggestions.
It seems that the Oktava/USB with the hypercardioids caps might be the way to go: I would save on a mixer (but will need to use my laptop and other gear to record the audio and I need to check it).

Otherwise I will still need to find a hypercard mic which will be on the same level/cost of the NTG-2 and add a field mixer too as the ones suggested here.

thx all.
CIPO

 

[Steve House]

Steve House: thank you for the excellent explanation. Everything is much clearer now. Your suggested mic/hyper cardioids etc are very expensive for my budget but I got all your suggestions.
It seems that the Oktava/USB with the hypercardioids caps might be the way to go: I would save on a mixer (but will need to use my laptop and other gear to record the audio and I need to check it).

Otherwise I will still need to find a hypercard mic which will be on the same level/cost of the NTG-2 and add a field mixer too as the ones suggested here.

thx all.
CIPO

Wasn't necessarily suggesting those specific mics as I know they're over your budget - just mentioning them as examples of the type because they're widely known and easy to locate on the manufacturer's sites where you can go see their polar patterns, etc. The AKG Blueline SE300B/CK93 combination is under $478 on B&H. How much under I don't know but you can get a quote from B&H online. I've also seem them used for less. The Oktava is well received as a budget mic by many - I don't have any direct personal experience with it but the sample files I've heard posted online sound good.

Maintaining sync for longer takes recording your audio to a laptop is not a trivial issue. While establishing sync is easily done with a slate or even a hand clap, preventing drift if the shot runs over 5 to 10 minutes can be a headache. Just the mechanics involved in working both the camera and the laptop at once is challenging for a one-man band. Generally one can get better results with less hassle going single system recording into the camera.

 

[CiPO]

Two lavalier mics, one on subject and one on interviewer.
If your camcorder has 3.5mm stereo mic input you could maybe get by with those powered Giant Squid stereo lavaliers
Ask if you can get a custom cable lengths so you can attach one mic on interviewer and another to the subject. This is by far the most reasonable upgrade but you will risk with interference from cellular phones etc but so do you get interference with XLR lavaliers as the power modules of many lavs are sensitive to such interferences.

T

Hi

that looks a very impressive piece of equipment and also very cheap. How about the overall audio quality compared to other more expensive mic ?
Do you think I would anyway hear a difference compared to the cam integrated mic ?
THX

 

[CiPO]

Wasn't necessarily suggesting those specific mics as I know they're over your budget - just mentioning them as examples of the type because they're widely known and easy to locate on the manufacturer's sites where you can go see their polar patterns, etc. The AKG Blueline SE300B/CK93 combination is under $478 on B&H. How much under I don't know but you can get a quote from B&H online. I've also seem them used for less. The Oktava is well received as a budget mic by many - I don't have any direct personal experience with it but the sample files I've heard posted online sound good.

Yes, you are right. I have the B&H paper catalog and I saw also lots of audio accessories for my Sony cam. They even have wless mic or shotgun for the hot shoe socket.
An other question related to this whole issue. Let's say I want also to make some interviews in very noisy environments with lots of people (e.g. bars or even discos). Would one of those on cam shotgun been the correct way to go for quick and pratical interviews ?

Maintaining sync for longer takes recording your audio to a laptop is not a trivial issue. While establishing sync is easily done with a slate or even a hand clap, preventing drift if the shot runs over 5 to 10 minutes can be a headache. Just the mechanics involved in working both the camera and the laptop at once is challenging for a one-man band. Generally one can get better results with less hassle going single system recording into the camera.

That's true but even if I will have long interviews I will rarely have more then 5-10 minutes without cuts or editing points in the audio. So in these cases I can resynch if something went wrong. Isn't it ?
THX again

 

[Steve House]

Yes, you are right. I have the B&H paper catalog and I saw also lots of audio accessories for my Sony cam. They even have wless mic or shotgun for the hot shoe socket.
An other question related to this whole issue. Let's say I want also to make some interviews in very noisy environments with lots of people (e.g. bars or even discos). Would one of those on cam shotgun been the correct way to go for quick and pratical interviews ?

Not in my opinion. An on-camera mic is rarely good for interviews in ANY environment, it's just too far from the subject to sound good, and in a loud environment it will be totally useless. Their off-axis rejection is only a matter of degree so in a very noisy environment a lot of surrounding sound is still going to be picked up and anything coming from directly behind your subject will not be attenuated at all. The best solution in that sort of location is a cardioid hand-held reporter's mic in the hands of an interviewer who's holding the mic within a few inches of the subject's mouth. In a club or disco, at a concert or whatnot, a cable running from the subject to the camera might get in the way so a wireless handheld mic with a receiver on the camera would be my first choice.

That's true but even if I will have long interviews I will rarely have more then 5-10 minutes without cuts or editing points in the audio. So in these cases I can resynch if something went wrong. Isn't it ?
THX again

Sure, but it's going to be a pain in the neck. Single system will be far simpler and more reliable.

 

[ICortella]

The best solution in that sort of location is a cardioid hand-held reporter's mic in the hands of an interviewer who's holding the mic within a few inches of the subject's mouth. In a club or disco, at a concert or whatnot, a cable running from the subject to the camera might get in the way so a wireless handheld mic with a receiver on the camera would be my first choice.

Cipo, sorry to get into this again, but the more I follow the thread the more I think you need something like the AKG micropen. You can use it as a lav and also as a handheld mic. I think that if your main interest is recording interviews it´ll cover most of the uses you look for at an affodable price.

http://www.guitarampkeyboard.com/photo.php?id=3891